or at least put dnd & remorseless winter off global cd by the time we pop our burst everyones out of dnd or theres only like 3-4 seconds left with CC and disarms youre lucky to get 1 hit
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What blizz needs to do is make RW replace DD for frost. Not talking just ability wise but all of the talent interactions should as well.
No more extra buttons to push to set up in aoe, no more planting in order to get a haste buff and obli cleave, no more worrying about if pack moves out of DD, and it’s one extra rune we’ll have at the start of a pull.
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No. 10char
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Ok, why tho?
Why not it’s literally the best solution? Do you have an actual reason?
I agree ive been saying that too it should jsut be on rw
It overloads RW when it’s already pretty overloaded as an ability.
Tying Cleaving Strikes to RW just makes Obliterate cleaving more of a glorified Scythe and puts more power into it when KM needs less power.
Tying Cleaving Strikes to RW would remove any real condition from Obliterate cleaving and extend how long and often you could cleave, meaning it would be nerfed far below 100% (think 50-60% cleaved damage), at which point why even have Obliterate cleave?
Remorseless Winter can already be rolled for 1min under lust, so you’ll have 100% cleaving for 1minute without any conditions tied to it, which is busted.
Remorseless Winter is currently used on CD. Tying Cleaving Strikes to it means you can never press it on CD in AoE if Pillar would be coming off within 10s, which is just about always with Icecap.
Removing DND from Frost removes PvP utility against stealthed targets & keeping enemies in combat.
Moving Cleaving Strikes to RW doesn’t actually solve the problem and just likes RW up to get the inevitable hate when people realize this.
The best solution - the one that actually addresses the problem - is moving damage out of KM and into the spenders, where it should be, instead of having the spec hyper focused on doing 70% of a pull’s damage in a 10s window.
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How is it overloaded. It does AoE and has an extension if you talent it. If you are in PVP it is an AOE stun instead of a damaging talent.
It literally already is and scythe should just be removed TBH
This is more of a problem with current Icecap being stupid than with remorseless cleave.
No. just fix Icecap instead and then we can do half normal damage without ruining other things
Edit: like 80% uptime on a >25% str boost or 20% strength boost isn’t healthy gameplay…
Thats the new kelli I wouldnt mind them any attention lol
How exactly is this overloaded? It’s an AoE slow that deals damage. And tbh, it’s not that much damage unless ur able to keep it up on a lot of enemies. Ya, there’s a pvp talent to give it a stun, but that’s if you take it and if you’re able to keep it on someone for the required 5 seconds, not to mention it increases the cooldown of RW just by taking it.
Having a spec excel in sustained cleave isn’t exactly new, much less a terrible thing.
U realize how many specs have access to this but aren’t just capped at 3 targets?
Take unholy dk:
- Diseases applied through one button as well as talent builds to allow for wounds to explode on nearby enemies,
- Exploding AoE rp spender that doesn’t require enemies to be in a line.
- DT gives pet AoE
- Scourge Strike hits 8 total enemies while within DD/Defile, not counting wounds being burst that can be applied in AoE thanks to DT. In the right situation with the right build, this could set you up to do massive AoE damage from a variety of effects, almost all of which are benefitting from UH’s mastery stat.
Other melee spec examples that can have 100% uptime on cleave that immediately come to mind are fury and outlaw.
I’m not saying “frost should have uncapped aoe and be able to hit 10+ targets with one obli.” No one is. It’s fine to keep it capped at 3 like it is now.
But I fail to see how it is such an issue to allow frost to have similar access to cleave that other specs already have as well.
And “they can have cleave for one minute during lust” isn’t really that strong of a counter argument here, especially since that will have 0 to factor in during single target fights, which is what will happen during most tyr weeks except for a couple of dungeons if they’re in the rotation.
Good stealth pvp’ers will generally be able to work around a DD except under niche conditions.
The alternative that we’re currently stuck with is bogging down the rotation using GCD abilities that don’t really fall within the flavor of the spec and only give conditional cleave. Saying it will turn a primary rune spender into a glorified version of a talent no one currently uses in most situations already is a really weird take.
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Oh Rip, why does FDK specifically have huge divides between its players? it doesn’t even seem like a breath issue. Like FDK seems to have players who don’t want to like talk to each other?
There are people that want Oblit to cleave more than it already does because 500k cries on 1 target is good, it hitting 5+ is even better!
Also DnD is to get people out of stealth by placing it where they are, not to hope they walk into it, or to put someone back in combat trying to drink.
Spec flavor is bad if it takes away class flavor. DnD is one of the first abilities DKs got when they were being designed.
Also, the reason why no one takes Frostscythe is because of that primary runes spender gaining way too much power. Obliterate needs to lose power, not gain more.
I think it’s because blizzard fumbled so bad with the class at launch and throughout the xpacks and we have some brainless players too. There’s people from legion who really liked dual wielding frost so they want frost to only be dual wielding and remove 2H even though they can still use those now for example brainless…
Ah got it. I mean I agree that blizzard has fumbled the ball sure, but I swear the FDK dissonants want like weird things. Oblit doing low dmg. other things doing the damage for FDK like howling blast for some reason. saying oblit is bad everything is overloaded. I just don’t understand. Even with Hpal being down bad it’s people aren’t this crazy.
Those people aren’t from Legion, they are from way before Legion, like Wrath and Cata. 2h Frost was a meme build during those times.
There is a thing called precedence which people who want the class to be 2h only fully ignore.
It’s hilarious at how wrong you and Mordir are about other people. Absolutely no one is saying that Obliterate should be basically removed, but it 100% needs to lose power so the rest of the kit can actually grow.
Being delusional to what is actually being said is the problem. 2h players were warned YEARS ago things would play out like this.
Blizzard didn’t fumble anything at launch, as you guys like to say, its Blizzards game. Just because you don’t like how they designed frost because it didn’t fit a singular boss fight towards the end of the expansion where he sent waves of undead at you is a you problem. They designed Frost to be DW whether you like it or not so quit whining about it, you got your 2h back and it wasn’t good enough as others pointed out it was never going to be enough. It’s people like you that fractured frost DK, not the other way around. Others wanted a good spec while you wanted to play a weapon. Now you got your weapon so where did everyone go? Oh… right, they left because the gameplay suffered.
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Yeah it blows my mind too. Maybe they’re devs in disguise since the devs hate us so much lmao
Because you’re already said it elsewhere on these forums that you play casually, this is your alt, and you mainly/only PvP, so you’re already not playing the class as much as people that main it and you’re playing the end game pillar that has the least amount of players.
And when I’ve tried to explain these things just in general to you, you just argue back.
It’s not everything, it’s two buttons.
Using the Obliterate sim profile for numbers (https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/DF4_Raid.html), Obliterate quite literally:
- Grants at least an average of 1.9 seconds of Pillar CDR on cast since 95% of Obliterates are crits, either naturally or due to KM
- Procs Rime
- Indirectly applies Razorice due to Rime procs
- Stacks Bonegrinder
- Stacks Gathering Storm
- Stacks Pillar Strength
- Stacks Enduring Strength
- Refunds 1 rune almost 46% of the time
- Generates RP
- Triggers Rune Mastery
- Hits for an average of 424k~ to a single target
- Can cleave to 3 targets total for 100% damage without a real talent investment
While Frost Strike, the actual spender:
- Grants at least an average of 0.6 seconds of Pillar CDR on cast since most builds that wil press Frost Strike aren’t running more than 30% crit
- Trigger Icy Talons.
- Trigger Unleashed Frenzy
- Refund 1 rune 60% of the time
- Grants an average of 7 KM procs over 5 a minute fight with CBR
- Hits for an average of 164k to a single target
While Remorseless Winter:
- Procs Rime
- Indirectly applies Razorice due to Rime procs
- Stacks Pillar Strength
- Generates RP
- Triggers Rune Mastery
- Debuffs the target with Everfrost
- Gets ramped by spending Runes, giving it already huge synergy with Obliterate while having no RP synergy
- Hits for an average 46k to a single target
- Hits all nearby targets for the same amount
And for giggles, Howling Blast:
- Applies Frost Fever
- Stacks Razorice with Rime
- Stacks Pillar Strength
- Triggers Rune Mastery
- Hits for an average of 30k on a single target
- Hits all nearby targets for sqrt reduced damage
- Is only pressed once without Rime
Even if you don’t want to ascribe to the builder/spender analogy for Obliterate & Frost Strike, Remorseless Winter is doing 50% more things for the spec while being pressed almost 6x less. Obliterate is doing twice as much as Frost Strike while being pressed 50%~ more. You could move Bonegrinder, Pillar stacking, and Enduring Strength stacking all to Frost Strike/GA and that would maybe deload Obliterate/KM enough.
Compared to current Ret which people in general have praised, you press Judgment and: Generate 2 Holy Power, apply the Greater Judgment debuff, add 1/3 a stack for Blessing of Dawn, deal 100% damage to a single target and 50% to 4 others (with a 2 talent point investment), triggers Empyrean Legacy. That’s 6 things - and tied for the most - on a 5 button kit where only the spenders achieve a similar amount of “doing things”.
I guess I should have picked better words I don’t understand why some very specific individuals on these forums think its a problem. If you don’t like a damage profile of a spec there is 13 classes with a combined 39 classes. Find one you like Or better option use the talent system and craft you a build you like.
yes it an alt but I’ve played it for multiple seasons for many hours in PVP and in M+ I don’t need to have it be my main because I’m a healer main in raid and DK doesn’t heal, not even to mention I swap classes if my “main” becomes unfun. like I did for holy this tier. Or Rdruid back in nathria when Hpal was the most fun. I have spent enough hours on FDK to talk about it.
And even still I have not advocated for changing its damage profile from what it is but simply keeping it the way it is because I find it fun. I have even come up with ideas that would make both playstyles viable so that everyone can have their cake and eat it too, but for some reason that isn’t good enough for ya.
It doesn’t matter what the builder or spender is to be honest. because if we were to define “builder spender spec” every single DPS spec in this game is one.
Why is this a problem. I still don’t understand Its how the class is designed at this point why does it matter what is the builder and what is the spender. All you are doing is changing where the damage is not where it comes from. In my opinion Runes are a bit more thematic to DK and I think its cool that FDK focuses very heavily on that. Especially and this is the most important part You can choose to not play that way via the talent system and go for breath of sindragosa, which only has a 5133 difference according to the link you sent and now you only deal around 20% obliterate damage and >40% rune damage. man the wonders of the talent system am I right? You don’t have to play the meta build. Play what you enjoy.
I’ve listened to max’s stream quite a few times and he brings up Havoc DH and how the difference between momentum and not is Generally less than 5% and thats super good balancing. The difference between obliterate and sindragosa even less than that. Your not having bosses or packs die because you are not in the right build. If people want to play with oblit as a talent and not focus so much on RP let them as you can choose to not by playing a completely different build with less than a 1.2% difference in output.
JC man play what you want you don’t need to have your build be meta and be the best to play it. Was playing Hpriest in raid the other day don’t like the meta build so I didn’t take it. Still did fine for HPS and for HPS parses, it doesn’t need to be so deep that yall want to change optional talents for other people that you yourself don’t have to use.
Edit: are you just wanting the “spender” to do damage rather than the “builder”, I could be getting confused between you and other dk’s and I don’t feel like looking tbh, but I thought it was you who wanted howling blast to be stronger but like thats also an Rune spender so idk man. Like if you were in charge of dk what would your Ideal damage profile be? how can we get you there without ruining what other people enjoy through the optional talent system?
Edit 2: I will agree with you I don’t think we should ONLY be spending runes and completely ignoring RP. If there is a solution that lets me interact with both in a fun way sure Lets do it. Maybe you have a capstone that changes all those rune refunds on KM to be an RP spender Buff and also a runic empowerment percentage buff for true weaving!! Nobody wants to take your build away from you, so why seek to take obliteration and its fun away from others?
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Exactly, instead of changing Frost into what it is you guys should have sought out Arms warrior. You can’t change something, drive people away, say “representation is low Blizzard do something!” And that something be to continue further down the route that drove people away.
Also LimitMax lives in a world of perfect play and if you look at frost it has the biggest variance in damage output when played.
Howling Blast is also mainly used during a proc that makes it free of charge, so what is your point exactly? This isn’t masterfrost anymore where Howling Blast can be your primary rune spender.
This also isn’t meta, this is about having a fun spec to play which Frost has been regressing ever since SL. But the cold hard fact is meta does matter so long as you play with other people especially randoms in places like M+. If you are meta you are more likely to find a group and the meta shapes the landscape all the way down because bad players think you need x spec to do good so they overlook everyone else. It’s just basic human nature in an MMO.
I also wish people like you wouldn’t have said “screw everyone else I want 2h this way and I don’t care if it ruins the spec I WANT MY 2H!” Now that the spec is ruined and a few people like it you want to say “don’t ruin my fun” all the while complaining about the very thing you find fun. It makes 0 sense.
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Frost DK has been the “Runic Power” based DK spec since Cata so it heavily focusing on runes is a direct antithesis to its design, moreso than DW/2h/Breath/< anything else people dont like >.
Except BoS is only 27% and you can’t play it with a 2h so why would I bother?
Because this isn’t about Obliteration vs. Sindragosa, this is about the Obliterate button vs. every other DPS button. You have to be trolling at this point; this has been explained numerous time across various threads and you constantly ignore it.
People want abilities to do more damage outside of CDs. People want Frost Strike to do more damage. People want something to be done with Cleaving Strikes. Literally all of these issues are gated behind Obliterate & KM because 1 button is doing 50% + of the lifting for the entire spec.
I already do play the build I want to play and have been for the past 3~ years. It’s precisely why I’m saying it’s a problem: because after playing it for 3 years, it’s very clearly causing problems.
In Legion, the core (Obliterate, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Remorseless Winter) all did reasonable damage. Not a single one overshadowed the others by 25%+ of the breakdown like Obliterate does now. Not a single one overshadowed the others from a design standpoint either where you’re encouraged to ignore resources and procs that aren’t KM.
What I want is very simple: a return to Legion design where resource management matters more [than it does now] and where Frost Strike & Howling Blast are either stronger than Obliterate, so there’s always a reason to use them instead of just ignoring RP & Rime procs, or where Obliterate/KM loses most of its overloaded interactions in the spec.
Like I’ve already said, there’s 0 reason for Pillar, Enduring Strength, and Gathering Storm ramp to all be tied to runes spent while also having Bonegrinder, Murderous, and the spec’s entire cleave/AoE damage tied to KM. It pushes too much emphasis on Obliterate to always be pressed and on ignoring other abilities.
It’s poor design to have 1 button control all the procs, flow, and resources of a spec and also be the largest damage contributor. That’s why I’m pushing for changes towards the baseline of the spec, because while you may like Frost DK only really focusing on 1 button (which still directly affects Breath by the way; the capstones aren’t really that fundamentally different), the playerbase very clearly doesn’t or there’d be a lot more people playing Frost.