The dwarves, knowing the whelps will become hardy berserkers, elect to secure their lands by exterminating them, to defend themselves.
The Forsaken deal with the Vile Fin first by harvesting their parts for use in chemical/bioweapons, and then by imprinting terror on their tadpoles and leashing them as pets for decrepit, non-combatant nobles.
Oh now murlocs are sacrosanct?
If thats the case then everyone in this game belongs in the Hauge.
And I hardly think murdering children because they could grow up into a threat is some noble effort. Nor is butchering mentally ill homeless people.
But the Alliance do it so it’s heroic. Gotcha.
Murlocs aren’t sacrosanct, but the Alliance’s dispassionate extermination of them from the local natural water sources (in response to what they did to Guard Rolf, among less trained folk) is observably different from any of the Forsaken’s interactions with them in Vanilla or in Cata. You know this.
I don’t know how you “got” “the Alliance do it so it’s heroic” out of my saying “it was dark, it was ugly.”
That is quite literately a war crime, if not several.
Yes, it is.
Grelin,
My time is short and many matters press on my time, and I hope that your investigation of the trolls will not be one of them. Therefore I will allow you to use my authority in dealing with the trolls in whatever fashion you deem necessary, more so if you are able to find an expedient solution.
Magni Bronzebeard
A Report on the State of the Frostmane Trolls in the General Area of Coldridge Valley
Prepared by Grelin Whitebeard, Senate Special Envoy
From the time that I have spent observing the movement of the Frostmane trolls in the Coldridge Valley area, I have determined that they pose no large threat to dwarven settlements in the area. Moreover, they are a threat that can be eliminated with little additional support from the army. Through the assistance of Mountaineers already stationed in Coldridge Valley and mercenaries (paid with funds set aside by the Senate prior to my dispatchment), I am confident that the problem will be solved in short order. This action has been authorized with the sanction given to me by King Bronzebeard.
As compared to:
Oh, . . .the flowers are blooming in Hillsbrad and the air is so fresh and brisk. I can’t help but to wallow in the misery of it all. I look out my grimy window and long for the day when our New Plague brings this world the death it deserves.
Stand at attention while addressing me, .
I am under direct command of Varimathras. We are to quell the human infestation until our apothecaries can develop the new plague.
I hear you were enlisted by Darthalia to wage war on the humans of Hillsbrad. So jealous I am. . .
While you’re off having all the fun – slaying humans, pillaging the town, terrorizing innocent people – I am stuck standing guard here in Tarren Mill.
Perhaps you’ll take pity on an old Deathguard like myself? You see I am collecting human skulls.
Oh it’s back to arguing the morality of killing 10-15 year old lowbie quest mobs again?
Sorry to destroy your guys’s arguments but not only is it overwhelmingly inane, there is no winner beyond “Each side kills overwhelming numbers of random baddies, especially in lower levels” and “The quest / game designers 15 years ago did not make a moral judgment of having you kill quilboar / murlocs / whatever”.
But no let’s tit-for-tat about who got warcrimed harder over a glass onion more, because it’s clear the writers never put this much thought in when they had you kill 8 Gnolls.
(But the Forsaken did try to colonize a nation)
And we would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for those meddling kids and their dog!
The only difference is the Forsaken don’t mind being dark and ugly. That’s kinda just how they look as a matter of fact.
Again- the only material difference between the Forsaken and every other playable faction, is the Forsaken don’t BS about it. They’re cruel, relentless, and willing to go to any lengths to acheive their ends. So is everyone else. They just don’t pretend it isn’t fun.
Not even the Ebon Blade resorts to the ends of the Forsaken with the same frequency or malicious glee, let alone any of the other player races. I’ve posted material differences and I’ve addressed the examples you’ve presented of Alliance bloodshed and then some.
You’re right they’re far worse.
Have you played the DK class hall? C’mon now.
No, I didn’t play a Death Knight in Legion very long. I heard about the attack on Light’s Hope secondhand and my character even held it over someone’s head at one point, but I’m not seeing them rationalizing mass necromancy or brewing omnicidal new plagues.
Bruh!
Where do you think all the AR DKs came from? C’mon now. For a professed fan of the Forsaken you’ve a more skeptical to hostile perception of everything they do than even Lordebros I’ve tangled with.
And what the Hell do you call summoning an army of ghouls to attack the Argents and the Knights of the Silver Hand other than mass necromancy?
I’ll give them a pass with the AR DK thing as at least they sort of have free will. Not really though as “We Ride Forth” shows Bolvar still dominates their bodies with his mind, a thing the erstwhile ebil unded Sylvanas never did to a member of the Forsaken with necromancy at least.
But you kill mindless undead all the time, and frequently there’s a soul trapped inside their like yolk in an egg.
The Forsaken may have an imperfect relationship with their bodies and souls but it’s still theirs. It’s not a plaything for Darth Vader wannabes.
But just like the Alliance the Ebonblade acts bummed about their ceaseless atrocities sometimes. So. That absolves them I guess.
I wouldn’t say I’m hostile about it, but these examples of Ebon Blade atrocity are both pretty recent and they’re both regretfully done. With the Forsaken, it actually does seem to be ceaseless and generally gleeful, and it goes all the way back to Warcraft 3.
Respectfully this comes off like you’re holding me to someone else’s axioms or positions. As if I think Magni’s letting Grelin handle the Frostmane however he felt like was “heroic,” or now that the Ebon Blade are “absolved.” That’s not the point to me.
But having regret over killing is different from finding it fun. That’s not just kooky Halloween-flavored eccentricity, that’s indulging in evil. Which at times is very fun, and for that reason shouldn’t be whitewashed.
The Forsaken didn’t exist at that junction. Not in anyway I’m familar with them.
Keep in mind I’m 30. Which ain’t a youngblood. And my experience with WC3 was playing the campaign when I was like 9 years old. I replayed it when I was like 16, long after I’d got into WoW, and enjoyed it a lot more. But I still think Ensemble Studios, Creative Assembly and Relic Entertainment clowned on Blizzard for RTS design.
Then the Forsaken were all over the place in Vanilla. Seriously there’s so many terrible ideas, like they lost more of their personality the longer they were undead. Thank God that never went anywhere. Gee let’s have our most established and memorable characters turn into robots that sounds fun. They weren’t really a thing in BC beyond the Blood Elf questlines where they basically rescued them.
Then from Wrath onward I think we’ve had nuggets of wonderful ideas. But the Forsaken have been forever weighed down by Sylvanas Windrunner. A potentially interesting character who’s worst story was Edge Of Night, so naturally they felt that was the one they should base all her motivations on.
I actually think the Forsaken are in a unique place right now to properly define themselves, and their general vibe should be;
They shouldn’t be sorrowful, sympathetic or sociopathic. They might come off as the ladder but they don’t mean anything by it. In fact they find it quietly offensive you don’t want their pet SUV sized spider to wrap you in webs.
That’s the only way she can give hugs! Her legs are too pointed and serrated otherwise.
“… Okay that’s maybe also how she devours prey. But she does seem to like you. At any rate I should be able to stop her before your internal organs are liquidated”
If you’re talking about Gretchen Dedmar, I’m still convinced that old biddy is running a con for bat pelts. She’s still telling that same sob story almost word for word even after Arthas is dead.
While the Ebon Blade is leery about betraying their allies, they don’t exactly shy away from the use of Army of the Dead. Or from really any traditionally evil action as long as it’s to an enemy.
That’s fair, and I shouldn’t have commented from ignorance. I maintain though that the Ebon Blade before Legion seemed more organizationally restrained, despite the bog standard war crime hotbar all playable classes have.
Nah I’d have to google the names of OG Brill. But in several cases there’s situations where ‘younger’ Forsaken worry they’ll turn more robotic like their counterparts. Pretty sure one was the herbalism trainer next to the Alchemy trainer. Idk I played Classic whenever it was released and stopped after hitting level 55 or so.
Gretchen I’m pretty sure is just senile. And we’re all just being nice to perpetual zombie grandma.