I’ve been thinking about the Forsaken’s leaderless state so far, with the mentions of Calia and other ideas being thrown around. While I don’t hate Calia myself, I do think it be out of touch for a Menethil to rule the Forsaken again. Instead, I’d rather the forsaken delve into a theocracy, following the tenets of the Cult of Forgotten Shadows. It’s teachings of balance, though preference for shadow, and the fact it can (and has) accepted members outside of the Horde would be a great shift now that Sylvanas is no longer ruling with her cult of personality. What do you guys think?
I think Blizzard shafted the Forsaken so dang hard this expansion that it’s going to take a generation for the shock to wear off.
Their entire culture has been built around Sylvanas; she set the goals, the culture, the expansion - everything, and Blizzard really hasn’t built them up at all aside from being plague junkies.
I think leaving them in limbo is the best thing, and I mean that from a narrative perspective, not a meta one.
Give the Forsaken an expansion of genuinely well written stories in which they don’t have any clear leader; allow them to explore new characters, new philosophies, and confront the harsh reality of the world they’ve woken up into with Sylvanas gone.
From that, I think a form of governance/a new leader can easily be born - but I’d rather them not just “wham, bam” a brand new thing into shape and then move on like nothing ever happened.
This has been a major foundational shake up for the Forsaken; they should have some time to absorb that impact and reshape themselves slowly.
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The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow barely qualifies as an entity. There’s rough ideas about what their deal is in Vanillia/Classic but it is super duper vague. ‘Hey you should totally learn Light magic because it’s useful but don’t forget you’re spooky so, ya know, use Shadow magic’ is about all you get.
As of Legion according to the Priest Hall quests the Forgotten Shadow disintegrated at some point. You allegedly revive it by reviving Natalie Seline but what this changes is never explored.
Now what I’d like to see is some return to representative democracy we saw briefly in Before The Storm. This makes a lot of sense to me as they’ve a very ‘no gods, no masters’ free will streak to them. Additionally between Arthas and now Slyvanas they’ve had nothing but the worst luck imaginable with monarchs of both coronation and bloodline. I think they’d move away from anything resembling a king or queen.
Ideally I’d like to see a Desolate Council as represented by a triumverate of characters like what the Belves and Dwarves have. Ideally for me you’d have a Grand Executor, Chief Apothecary and Dark Bishop to represent the Deathguard/stalkers, the Royal Apothecary Society and the Forgotten Shadow.
The trouble is of course who’d fill those roles. Now if I was in charge I’d workshop new or returning characters in SL. In Bastion I’d have Darnell turn up - yep that NPC helper from Death Knell. He’ll be our Lawful Neutral Grand Executor. Build him up to be a fair man who proves to understand the merits of ruthlessness but prefers dealing with things honorably.
In Maldraxxus we see Apothecary Faranell trying to better understand the nature of undeath and necromancy to further the Forsaken’s understanding of undeath as a cosmic force. He’ll grow to be our Neutral Evil Chief Apothecary.
And finally Seline in Revendreth - made or retconned to be Undead. Looking for the souls of dead, prideful dead Church of the Holy Light Priests that destroyed her works to probe their mind with Shadow magic. She’ll grow to become our Chaotic Good Dark Bishop.
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I think you both definetly got some cool ideas, and some time to sink into a new way of life probably fitting for the Forsaken. A reborn desolate council…one that can last longer then one book, would be pretty neat. Exploring different characters with minor roles and expanding on them would also be fitting, though it seems they really pushing Lillian Voss at the moment. Not sure how I feel about her.
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I like Lilian Voss a lot. But as of Legion I wrote this character as ‘living’ in Death Knell and counseling the newly risen undead. It’s a bit difficult squaring a good aligned character with the Forsaken so I landed on “Well he knows he can’t stop Slyvanas but he can help new undead avoid the disastrous path he first walked”.
Between that and my Vanilla to BC main being an undead Rogue named Bellmont I RP’ed as a Deathstalker Commander I’m starting to grow suspicious. But it was very cool both times to see my idea also being used by Blizzard writers.
I kind of like Voss hanging out more in that capacity. She can be the Forsaken’s version of Rexar. Typically loyal to the Horde but not at all surprising to have her turn up as a neutral character helping out adventurers with a problem in her wheelhouse. She’s got a lady bone for killing zealots and necromancers I imagine she’d have good reason to pop up and help everyone accomplish those ends when it fits.
Less a leader and more the inter faction face of the Forsaken. A noble and honorable undead who also reveals in killing people in truly depraved ways (in Tirisfal she’s straight up shadow stepping unto shoulders and tearing off heads).
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While the Cult is an important part of Forsaken society, it’s definitely doesn’t encompass enough of it to serve as the sole leading factor of them as a whole. If they go with a Council route (which could be intriguing), they should definitely have someone like Aelthalyste sit in, but not everyone in the Forsaken follows their tenets.
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It’s not though, really. I’ve always mained undead and have played a Priest for the past 3 years. I got no idea what the Forgotten Shadow’s deal is. They don’t come up once in any RP or story I’ve had because they’re not really a thing.
And it’s a shame, don’t get me wrong. The idea of spirituality amongst functionally immortal people who’ve already died is fascinating. But there’s nothing there. I think what highlights it is the undead leader of the Priest Order Hall had nothing to do with the Forgotten Shadow. And I didn’t even take it as a slight because of course he’d be more connected to the Church of the Holy Light. That’s an established idea you can build off of.
I like the Forsaken as they are, as such I’m generally going to be against an idea that boldly suggests Forsaken drastically change who they are. The Forsaken have one element that probably needs to be removed, their devotion to Sylvanas Windrunner. Once removed the first thing we need to find out is even if it needs to be replaced with something else, a point I’m not entirely sold on. But if it does need to be replaced, it should be replaced with something that doesn’t fundamentally change who they are.
I think whatever they do they’ll never let themselves be beholden a singular leader again. The LK enslaved them, Sylvanas betrayed them and everything they stand for. Having been through it twice they’ll reject any attempt at being ruled again and take their free will and self determination into their own hands.
Thing is though a drastic change was forced upon them by the plot. Their Dark Lady is gone. And in a weird way I actually like the unrelenting denial some of them show. It was always super weird to me that so mant Belves just accepted Kael’Thas turned on them so easily.
I don’t want them to change thematically. If Forsaken become Calia cadets who are just Stormwindians with throat cancer accents that will probably be my breaking point. But I do think they need to capitalize on other aspects of their identity. And their free will love turning into representative democracy sounds natural to me.
Be a fun meta thing. Like from a meta perspective the Forsaken do a lot of horrifying things but them also having a government type that most successful nations of Earth also have being also regarded as strange and bizarre really fits.
“Look at those depraved Forsaken. Not only do they feed off the flesh and bone of the living, but they also elect their own leaders and hold them accountable to the will of the people. Depraved! Can you imagine a leader not picked by Gods or decided by strength? Truly a ghoulish people”.
Like democracy best I can tell is not and never was a thing in this setting. Jus Sanguinis or Jus Potens Verax are the order of the day- also literal divine right in regards to Tyrande and Velen. The idea of “Ya know we’re just going to tally up opinions and go from there” should be as outlandish a concept as as sucking bone marrow for lunch. I also think the living dead having representative democracy would creep enough races out that Blizz wouldn’t have to hastily remove all other leaders not placed by the consent of the governed.
It also might explain people voluntarily joining the Forsaken. That idea was broached by short lived Zelling but I do very much like the idea of humans going there and saying
“Yeah they’re creepy but a Listener from the council came and wrote down how I was having trouble mining. Month later we got some ghouls with picks for hands. Ya gotta throw some gore over the nodes first and they don’t do the best job but ya know it’s better than nothing”
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Councils can be a good thing but with the Horde being run through a council it might get a bit “overlapy”.
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Yeah, that’s a change of circumstance though. I’m talking about a change in ideology, or worldview, or philosophy. I get that the Forsaken need to change, but I’d like to see that change be via emphasizing their existing traits, ideology, woldview, what have you. Not by adopting some psuedo-eastern philosophy of balance, and definitely not be seeking repentance and acceptance from the light. But I think we’re on the same page here.
This is an idea I like. Mostly for the opportunities that you present and that weird disconnect with our modern conventional wisdom. But also because this builds their future plot on their existing traits without changing them into something else in the process.
Democracy Forsaken still need a leader, and I put forward Lilian Voss as the obvious choice. But, in a twist on the usual formulae for Democracies, have her be an unwilling pick with no legal recourse to abdicate and shoved into the role of leader by a plurality of voters. It’s unrealistic, but it’s also kinda funny.
I don’t really see a fundamental problem with it.
Forsaken would have their Desolate Council and on that Desolate Council would be their representative who sits on the Horde Council and speaks for the Forsaken.
The Forsaken rep would be the “chief leader” for story writing concerns. The rest of the council can work as background characters we see every so often. We’re informed of what the Desolate Council thinks and wants by interacting with their representative on the Horde Council so the other members don’t eat up a ton of spotlight.
I mean, is it really that different from Zandalar’s Zanchuli Council?
Really the day to day minutia of how nations are run have never been a major focus of WoW. So long as we know they do function and there is at least one character to let us know it continues to function we’re good.
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