Just finally got around to running a few easy keys on my 616 warrior to feel things out.
The recent buffs definitely helped, but I think they still could still use a bit of love on the consistent damage front.
Haven’t seen much other input about how folks are feeling about the latest buffs. Silence is usually a good thing, so it could just be a me thing not performing well. My warrior isn’t fully optimized, my secondaries are still not quite where they should be. Still using cheaper enchants, etc.
What are yalls thoughts so far? My main frame of reference is comparing this Ret Pally to my Warrior – and this pally is a bit more optimized in terms of secondaries.
3 Likes
You can’t really compare Ret to other melee. Ret is just way too streamlined and pretty much a caster. Ret’s melee range is not even melee. They can actually stand a decent range away, throw divine storms and hammers while letting all the passives do the work.
As to your question, the buffs are nice but it took us from the bottom to mid. We’re at least floating again, but no where near sailing. They need to update a few things for QoL:
For Arms, remove “Sweeping Strikes” off of the GCD.
For both Dps, increase our melee range to make it a little forgiving. Especially for kicks. Nothing worse than risking instant death because you need to be inside the mob’s butt in order to interrupt them. There is just a massive inconsistency on mob hit boxes.
Clean up our class tree. Where Ret has had two reworks, warrior hasn’t really seen anything. We still have a lot of talent nodes that should be baked into other talents to be brought in line like other classes. We shouldn’t have massive throughput nodes in the same tier as defensive choices.
Lastly, our capstone talent nodes. They never should have been cap reduced and some either need a rework or massive buff.
I’m not a hardcore theory-crafter, but I feel these changes would really go a long way to making us more competitive and desired. Unless they want to give us more group utility, then other options open up.
12 Likes
Better Range would be a game changer for all melee. It’s probably the best part about playing Ret.
I know Blizzard is more likely to nerf Ret than they are give everyone range back, cause that is easier to do, and then they don’t have to admit they made a bad change by removing a lot of the increased range effects on Rogues/Ferals etc.
Ret really does play buttery smooth. I really hope they apply some of the Ret design philosophies to some other specs. It makes the game so much more enjoyable.
Warrior has never had the benefit of a longer melee range. We’ve always had to be right in the mobs behind. It’s extremely frustrating when the massive circle that is “suppose” to be the hit box is inaccurate. There are many dungeons where I need to be almost buried in the actual model of the mob to “be in range.”
Sadly, I agree with you, they most likely won’t buff every other melee range. At the same time, I don’t foresee them nerfing Ret’s range, that would dumpster the power of Divine storm. Even if I despise the simplicity of Ret, I don’t want to see them where Warrior dps was.
4 Likes
As far as giving warrior more range, the simply won’t do it. They remove range from all melee spec (expect pally). This was one of the dumbest thing blizzard did for TWW so far (there are more but this one is on top of the list). They did it because range class was complaining that melee was able to do their full rotation while having extra range so they are doing more damage. So blizzard cave and listen to the range class. However, even with the extra range it is much harder to dodge avoidable ground DoT or move away from avoidable AoE VS range that have an easier time to deal with it.
Also when have an melee been in the meta Comp for m+? I haven’t one. Is always range that’s meta who I have no idea why blizzard is making things harder for melee. Is the same as raid there is always more range being brought in for WFR and prgression than melee. You are lucky if you bring more than 4 melee to a progression raid and some specs are never bought but for range yea is common to see every range class gets a raid spot sometimes even more than one class gets a spot.
Meta is melee that can ignore aoe damage for higher keys. For pugs though ranged is king.
The interrupt thing is the only thing that bothers me having also played dh for a few seasons and pally for a couple seasons in df when they had ranged interrupts.
It’s be nice if they could integrate a charge mechanic into pummel of we arent in range. Or just change pummel to “throw rock” and give us 10 yard range on it.
1 Like
I some how doubt this, but not the stupidest thing I’ve heard of. All melee does not need the range of Ret Paladin, Ret is just kinda brain dead simple and safe to run right now. What does irk me the most is that hit-boxes are so inconsistent. It makes it very jarring to keep maximum up time or to kick targets that are right next to us.
Honestly, even 1 extra yard of range would be absolutely massive in terms of playability.
That or they need to start moving some of these mechanics away from melee and putting them on the ranged DPS instead / limiting the number of things that cause melee to have to run out.
It’s bad enough when the mobs are moving around or when their hitboxes are deceptively small and you have to practically be inside their model to hit them… or when like 5 mobs are all standing on top of eachother, and you tab to one that looks like it’s next to you, but it’s just slightly out of range and you have to move to a dangerous spot to hit an interrupt or something.
I mean, 3 yards is probably more than anyone needs, but 1-2 would be a huge QoL change for all melee – Especially melee using 2 handed weapons.
3 Likes
Absolutely, we don’t need the rubber arms that Rogues use to have. Just a bit of QoL adjustment. 1-2 yards is still in that danger zone of melee.
3 Likes
We’re still lacking, ESPECIALLY in big pulls. Changing our target caps was the biggest misstep I have ever seen. In 4 target pulls we do pretty good but still outclassed by Shaman and Ret. Ret is just going crazy right now though so not a fair comparison in all honesty.
Shockingly, my warrior actually sims higher on a dungeon slice than my pally now that I’ve optimized his gear a bit more, despite being a couple ilvl down.
I probably just need to do more play testing with it.
It might literally just be a matter of a little range boost making it easier to actually do our damage.
I’d actually trade some more power out of CD’s like Avatar/Ravager to get lower CDs on them too so I could just full send in a dungeon w/o fear of gimping boss damage or missing out of a decent size pack.
I think part of why Ret is so fun is that it’s strong without Wake, but their burst is also on a 30 second cadence. So you can just full send every pack w/o fear of missing out much on future packs.
Harder to do that when you have 1.5 minute CDs. Anger Management affecting Avatar/Roar too would be a big game changer. That way you don’t end up with desynced CDs if you take it.
I might just need to modify my playstyle to get used to decoupling Avatar/Roar from Reck/Ravager/BS. Might be able to find a cadence that is more fun for me w/o losing too much damage (Even though it sims lower for me) I’m not real crazy about the whole 1.5 minute one trick pony playstyle tbh. I prefer something more consistent.
2 Likes
The answer to this would be a return of the glyph of gag order in some form. Just have thrown weapon incurr the interrupt cd. Or maybe have it on a 45s or 60s cd for fury/arms.
Eh, I’m against long CD’s on any interrupts, ranged or melee. It’s just as much of a shared responsibility for ranged DPS to get interrupts as it is for melee. They should all be fairly low CDs.
I think a lot of ranged DPS just hide behind the long CD to almost never use their interrupt.
It would, but not for the better. As a melee, I enjoy that being a constraint. And while I wouldn’t mind the occasional melee with range perk —such as Ret or previously Feral (via Balance Affinity), etc.— if at cost partly commensurate to the extra melee-stacked opportunities it opens up, attacking with daggers from 2+ greatsword-lengths away or slicing air another spear’s length from one’s enemy never felt great. It felt like having a caster with virtually all mobile or instant casts.
Make it an Arms Warrior perk for using a polearm transmog opposite to extra bleed duration with an axe, Smash damage with a mace, and faint Rage gen per enemy Cleaved/Whirlwinded, and that’s something the party can frequently leverage to better effect than what equally near-utility opportunities it’d be giving up.
Or, hell, maybe even make it a thing for any and all two-handers, but only up to a 33.3% range increase (e.g., to 4 yards), rather than a whopping 67% or more.
But outright free, or literally doubling our range? Especially if applied across all melee? I’d rather not.
And most of all, I don’t want to see the increased melee range excuse inaccurate hitboxes or AoE indicators. THAT is what most needs improvement. Knowing which unit-centered AoEs are larger than they appear goes a bit too far towards knowledge depth to feel more “skill-expressive” than simply “annoying”.
Tl;dr: one extra yard of melee range on two-handers, at most. Fix inaccurate hitboxes / visually inaccurate hurtboxes regardless and asap.
As a start for making Fury (and any other Warrior) a bit more worthwhile generally…
- Spare us 2-3 talent points pre-Capstone. This could be through baselining certain skills (say, Spell Reflect), cheapening existing nodes (e.g., Crushing Force, Overwhelming Rage), and/or removing convoluting damage-nodes (e.g., Frothing Berserker, Crushing Force, Barbaric Training/Sidearm) outright and rebalancing around the difference while moving utility into their places. Whatever works.
- Double the effect of Rallying Cry on one’s own party.
- Effectively baseline Weapon Specialization —by Aura-buffing the class by 5% damage and adding 5% Leech to Vanguard— in favor of a class-wide Indomitable in its place.
Im with people saying we should have more range, we are one of the few 2h users who actually really more on strength than magic powers like DK/PALA, so it makes thematically sense to have a bit of a push, a " Lunging attack" of sorts
This meta feels rly bad for warrior, coming back to do some rating(not a good player i know) i feel like against some classes/specs is easier to just sit down and wait, cause you cant reach a frost mage or an evoker.
Execute is SUPER lackluster, its a tickle, playing thane fury my bloodthirsty crit for more and more often.
We are very susceptible to most CCs, this day i discovered i cant even stormbolt disarmed, dunno why is the case, if what i throw is not even my weapon to begin with.
Spell reflect talent feels like a nerf, +10sec of CD to reflect one extra spell? cant it be like reflect everything for 3 sec instead? if you go against comps like afflic+shadow you are going to be melted and spell reflect cant help you, where is some sort of resistance to spells/magic effect skill for us?
I still think a remake is necessary for the class, i see other classes playing wow2 and we are left behind in relation to gameplay, visuals and what we can do
3 Likes
Yeah, that’s pretty much the best case scenario. It would prevent things like where I’m right next to my focus target while killing prio target. Go to kick the focus target and they’re out of range and the macro kicks nothing.
2 Likes
I don’t have problem with melee range being consistant, but Blizzard has not set the game up that way. They have made it painfully clear they don’t intend warriors to be compensated for their various deficiencies with greater damage, so the alternative is undo those deficiencies.
1 Like
I think the answer to this was basically hit here:
Forgive me for not knowing the talent names, I am still relatively new to warrior. But to answer this question, I think the class tree needs a little pruning. When playing thane fury with AM, basically all of my class tree talents are tied up in throughput nodes with ZERO flexibility to move them around. When i run AM i take the capstone below avatar where pressing reck/avatar gives 8 seconds of the other already, so that solves the avatar issue. But since my talents are locked, I cannot take the talent to reduce roar CD by 45 seconds, which would line it up with every use of reck effectively giving me 45 second cd windows.
Critcake mentioned that the main problem is Armored to the Teeth (I think this is what its called, the 2 point node increasing strength based on armor). There is way to much power here to realistically take any points out. If this node was nerfed and the baseline power of other abilities brought up we could then flex this/these points to talents like shorter roar, etc.
I think a little class tree pruning would go a long way to solving that issue, and if that happened AM would probably be a very viable option. This is just my 2 cents though. What do you guys think?
1 Like
Relative to? Havoc, Survival, Enhance, Feral, Assassination, Subtlety, Outlaw, Frost, Unholy, Windwalker, and technically even Retribution likewise need to be in melee range to deal full damage.
Of those, Ret is the most outlying with Enhance spending 10 MWS at a time and Survival’s lossless ranged attack % uptime being neutered, and all others offer at best a (pseudo-)ranged interrupt and the occasional filler ranged attack.
There’s utility to shore up, yes, but at this point nearly every melee lacks extended melee range outside of the occasional rotational CD, not just Warrior.