Frost's Default RP Spender Should Be...Breath of Sindragosa

Classes Death Knight
1

I know some will look at the title and freak out but let’s explore. Current Frost suffers from having too much RP and not having a baseline AoE RP spender. Frost Strike is a lacking ability both in looks and function.

BoS plays well into Frost’s cleave and is already a strong part of its identity; it gives RP more value in the standard rotation and an AoE RP spender makes much more sense in the modern game. It also has a better/unique animation.

Since we’re not pressing FS during BoS, the rotation doesn’t really change in/out of the BoS window. This would also help all builds with a bit more baseline cleave, especially outside cooldowns. This will be especially nice after we lose the free cleave from the current tier.

Obviously, I’m not proposing replacing FS with the current cooldown version of BoS. The capstone talent would not change, aside from maybe a rename to something like Greater Breath of Sindragosa.

Breath of Sindragosa
Spend 25-50 RP to continuously deal 1-2 seconds (2-3 ticks) of Frost damage, every 1 sec, to enemies in a cone in front of you. Deals reduced damage to secondary targets and is not extendable. (damage tuning TBD by blizz)

The current DF talents that deal with FS can then be translated over, with slight tuning maybe:

  • Frost Strike → Breath of Sindragosa
  • Improved Frost Strike → Improved BoS (same function, does not affect capstone)
  • Runic Command will have a bit more value
  • Unleashed Frenzy/Icy Talons will be easier to keep up or re-apply if they work with each tick of BoS
  • Cold-Blooded Rage will be buffed due to additional BoS ticks
  • Obliteration may need some resource adjustments so we’re not getting RP starved and still has the issue of too many KMs but that’s a separate topic
  • Icecap also buffed indirectly due to additional BoS ticks/chances of CDR

As for Frost Strike, I don’t want to completely remove it. Instead I’d like to see it take the place of Chains of Ice for Cold Heart since I always found it clunky that our slow utility is replaced by a nuke, so this would be a nice QoL change.

This would mean Proliferating Chill would also need to include FS to keep the cleave function though. They could add more interactions as well, like a talent that gives BoS ticks a chance to add Cold Heart stacks for more frequent nuking.

Overall, I think a change like this would improve the gameplay of Frost and remedy some of its current RP issues without fundamentally affecting the playstyle. Personally, I’d be much happier pressing this version of BoS to spend my RP than current FS.

2 Likes
2

So, you want to turn your large, burst cooldown into a watered-down, always available ability? Sounds horrid.

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To be frankly honest, I kind of agree with Elhyas.

A more simple solution would be to make FS just overall better that fits with our kit. No really need to yeet one of Frost DK’s contentious but very powerful cooldown for consistency.

I miss FS being a good ability to press. Oh well. :L

2 Likes
4

If you’d read the post, especially the bolded parts, you’d see that I’m not proposing changing the CD BoS at all. Getting access to solid AoE RP spender sounds pretty good to me.

Curious to see what changes you’d make to it that wouldn’t basically get the same results. What I’m proposing has the benefit of giving us:

  • AoE RP spender
    • square root scaling
    • variable RP cost
  • more baseline cleave
  • integrated with our talents and makes some maintenance buffs less of a pain
  • easy to incorporate as a variation of an existing ability
  • looks good and plays well into Frost’s identity
  • frees up Chains of Ice to be a utility button
  • Frost Strike still has a purpose as a single target attack with significant damage
1 Like
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I read the post, I didn’t think I needed to address the stupidity of requesting to keep BoS the cd while also getting BoS the ability.

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A current 4pc after GA node would have accomplish this just as well. I don’t know why they didn’t add it where some other classes kept the tierset bonuses.

GA is served to be like Epidemic for Frost. An AoE RP expenditure. While the problem with Frost’s RP is apparent, I don’t think making two separate versions of BoS seem like a good solution.

Elhyas may be a jerk but I understand where he’s coming from. :frowning:

7

This could be almost as good of a solution but I have some issues with it:

  • GA doesn’t interact with with all RP spending buffs currently
  • Cone attack > line attack IMO
  • getting an ability for free from another ability is a nice bonus for tier, but is kind of bad design otherwise (this from someone who really likes the 4p too)
  • GA looks pretty bad still
  • we don’t really need a single target and AoE RP spender as long as the AoE version does decent enough damage to main target

Given how much of Frost’s identity revolves around BoS I think it’s fine to use it as an RP spender and have an empowered version as a CD. If people have that hard of a time wrapping their heads around it then it’s fine to call it something else, the looks/functionality is the important part here.

1 Like
8

I see what you’re saying and what you’re trying to accomplish.

However, the simple solution is to address GA. It has quite a few things working against itself right now.

  • position on the talent tree
  • seems to not be buffed by any other talents
  • a narrow line vs a cone(as some have argued)
  • is the only ability that adds RI to targets

Making GA base line(or re-positioning to earleir in the tree) and maybe stealing the hold to cast as a aoe RP dump may almost be a good idea at this point. I’m not sure exactly how it would work if they tried that but say at 60 rp does 2x dmg, 90 rp 3x dmg, 120 rp 4x dmg( and full RI stacks?). Keep it simple, make it weaker on ST then FS)which also need a buff and should apply RI imo) but better in AoE.

1 Like
9

Why not make Frostscythe a baseline rp ability for aoe instead of a talent.

Obliterate and Howling Blast are rune spenders so, Frost Strike and Frostscythe can be the rp spenders.

6 Likes
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The only thing would save sythe is lifting its target cap. That change won’t mean squat unless this happens first.

1 Like
11

nah, GA is fine as this. breath is great as is, as a damage cooldown type ability.

1 Like
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Turn Frostscythe into an aoe rp spender. Kinda like how unholy has epidemic.

3 Likes
13

We already have 3 RP spenders, they should be tweaked before bringing in a 4th. GA fills the RP AoE spender role but agree in that they should change to a cone. Chillstreak is a good big RP dumper but would love to see it be able to bounce off you so it can still be used in ST.

Personally I hate BoS aesthetically and don’t want to see it on my DK. But that’s just me, I know some people liked it.

8 Likes
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Breath is functionally bad in pvp (runic drains mean no deathstrikes and that means you die) It shouldnt be a baseline runic spender, and the honest truth is breath should be removed entirely, its actually the reason why frost dk feels so bad to play because they have to tune frost dk around breath being just an absolute giga destroyer of PvE mobs

You might like the fantasy or whatever, but make no mistake about it breath has always been the problem with frost dk design, Just its existence makes blizz have to tune all our other abilities to be garbage or else dk is just leagues ahead of everyone

The other problem was a lack of synergy within our talents which DF has really remedied with adding icecap and obliteration into the mix, But now the problem is FDK needs another rotational button that actively contributes to something in our kit, Runestrike couldve been good if it proced KM for free and had a short cd for example, And then you could even have soulreaper instant proc for frost dks and that would be 2 more buttons to our rotation

Runic drains just arent how dk should be, Frost dk should focus on weapon strikes, just pure attacks not ticks of damage

8 Likes
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I’m actually hoping they tune BoS to be an aoe ability not the ST/cleave versatile goliath it is atm. I don’t mind it existing for people that like that play style for m+, but I don’t think it should be able to do BOTH ST and aoe so well.

I actually think there are a few things contributing to us being so weak with ST. BoS tuned to being a ST and aoe ability is likely one. But also too many str % modifiers and KM oblits being so drastically overpowered compared to regular oblits, which is mostly the implementation of km rank2. The extreme boost in power from our CDs makes it so that we do no damage outside of them.

1 Like
16

Yeah a lot of that is true, Obliteration should 100% be the clear pick for ST damage and BoS shouldnt even be in the same ballpark as it, The fact that an AoE drain ability can keep up in ST is indeed a problem

As for the modifiers yeah this is true too, Blizz made all modifiers so obnoxiously strong if you asked me id nerf all of them to bring up base kit gameplay

4 Likes
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I do like the hold to cast idea but that’s probably not coming to other classes for a while. The fact that GA doesn’t trigger all the same interactions as FS is still annoying. Putting RI aside and how its handled between 2H/DW, GA is just AoE FS which is quite boring.

I’m not a fan of abilities that fulfill the same purpose, just at different target counts. I’d rather save myself the keybind and solve some of the other problems by combining them so that when GA is talented hitting a target with FS would trigger GA.

As I outlined above, I don’t really consider FS and GA as separate. They’re more like 2 sides of the same coin. They fulfill the same purpose and their usage is mutually exclusive especially with the new Avalanche.

Chillstreak is a great ability but is more of a cooldown that costs RP than an RP spender.

I like the BoS aesthetic and for better or worse, there’s no denying that it’s become a core part of FDK’s DNA. I still think that it would be a better RP spender than anything we have now, but I could live with a new ability that accomplishes what I’ve outlined.

The current BoS CD and the BoS that I’m suggesting are not the same thing. What I’m suggesting would be no different than pressing FS in pvp, except functionally/thematically better.

I think that’s oversimplifying it. Breath is an interesting ability, it just hasn’t had any real competition and being forced into the same build every expansion can get old real fast. BoS needs more supporting talents that modify how it’s played so that it stays fresh and players can have more choice around how to play it.

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Or… During Remorseless Winter when Frost Strike hits your primary target, all targets within 10 yards effected by Frost Fever also take 35% of the damage of Frost Strike.

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It hasnt had competition because its disgustingly overpowered and performs exceedingly well in more areas than it deserves, Breath should be an awful ST choice but its not, Breath should only be strong in 3+ target scenarios but its just strong into ALL pve

Breath does not need more supporting talents, It literally already has a few and less time needs to be spent on making breath better and more time needs to be spent on making alternative builds better than breath at least in the ST department, And the difference between breath ST and Oblit ST needs to be a large enough gap that playing breath in ST is throwing

4 Likes
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Something along those lines would be fine too for AoE, though probably should be higher than 35%.

What you’re complaining about there is tuning, not BoS.

Obviously you don’t like BoS but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s an interesting ability, and I say that as someone who is bored of playing it. I actually think that of the current capstones, Obliteration is a far worse ability. It locks you into using 2 abilities for 12s and has 0 flexibility for downtime. In addition you can easily waste KM procs without any chance for counterplay. I’d rather see that get replaced by something better, before breath.

They absolutely should remove some of the boring damage increase talents and replace them with some BoS alternatives. I’d love to be able to talent for a shorter 1min BoS, or a rotational BoS that acts like Warrior’s rampage, etc. There are lots of ways that they could get creative with BoS.