Frost Idea Dump Thread

It’s safe to say frost will be getting some changes, so I’d like to consolidate all our ideas into a single thread to help the dk dev notice our key complaints and desires a bit easier.

Based on general consensus for feedback, the priority list seems to be:

1.) Find a way to balance 2h and dual wield appropriately. This can either be done by altering runeforges or offering an alternative to stack razorice for 2h weapon builds.

2.) Find a good middle ground between breath and icecap/obliteration builds. The most common desire here is to find a good way to combine icecap and obliteration for solid, consistent burst in single target without so much downtime between the cooldowns, especially since breath can be taken with one of the other capstones.

3.) Figure out a solution or buff for glacial advance. This could be as simple as buffing the damage, removing the cooldown, making it do more damage on the first target hit, etc. Anything to make it feel worthy of a talent point and give us more reasons to spend it on rp in single target and aoe scenarios. Changing it to a cone or circle aoe around the player would be a nice change as well for the reliability of it. If all else fails, replace it with the arctic assault proc through obliterate killing machine procs.

4.) Add more nodes to improve the damage and functionality of frost strike for those who want to focus more on single target damage. Adding eradicating blow conduit would be a good option as well as creating a reverse-style interaction where frost strike increases obliterate damage to encourage weaving effectively. Baking a razorice interaction would also be desirable according to community feedback.

5.) Most players think obliterate feels awful to use without killing machine procs. Changing the damage profile to benefit from mastery could help as well as retaining rune strike to be the primary rune spam ability while fishing for killing machine procs. Some debate around adding a cooldown to obliterate and making it always deal frost damage has also been going around.

6.) A modification to chill streak for single target applications is widely desired. Making it bounce off the player if only one enemy is present or a new choice node option that makes it explode on the target could give it more variety in build types.

7.) There are too many multi-point nodes limiting the freedom to path around the tree as desired. There are also some questionable placements such as unleashed frenzy, which seems to be universally disliked and very subpar for all builds, especially those that don’t utilize frost strike often such as with breath of sindragosa.

8.) Making soul reaper useful for frost, as it currently doesn’t deal enough damage to justify its rune cost, would be a nice addition. There’s also a strong desire for making abomination limb deal shadowfrost damage so it feels better to use on frost for dps purposes.

9.) Change death and decay to shadowfrost damage or add more incentive to spend a rune on it as frost. Frost currently gains the lowest benefit from casting this, and the loss of death’s due as a covenant ability limits this ability to a glorified 2-target cleave toggle and nothing more. Please consider revamping it to be useful for all specs.

10.) If killing machine remains the same in its kit synergy, making it scale with crit for additional crit damage would be a great change for making crit stacking not have major diminishing returns.

Feel free to add anything that was missed, fellow cold ones, and suffer well.

10 Likes

Make them stat sticks and play the same so everyone can move on with this separation argument. That means they hit the same, same runeforges, same mechanics, same everything. I think everyone should be tired of seeing all this by now even Blizzard.

This is an absolute fact, its not a feeling. Obliterate was nerfed in SL beta and you can compare its damage outside of an Improved KM proc and without and the chasm is massive. There is no debate here, its pitiful.

Asking for more nerfs? Also even if they did bring back in Rune Strike it probably wont be any stronger than a baseline Obliterate and if it is, then something else is going to get nerfed to compensate.

If you go food shopping and you only have 100 dollars to spend, there is only so much that you can spend on each individual thing, if you add in another thing into the mix then something else is going to have to take a hit because you go over your budget.

So adding in crit scaling as well that that has to come from somewhere. Equivalent exchange. So where would that come from? Remorseless Winter? BoS? Obliterate again? Frost Strike? Frost Fever damage? There is a reason why people say remove damage from passive damage and put it into our actual abilities. They know that it just doesnt manifest without a cost somewhere else.

You always have the funniest things to add, Kelliste.

5 Likes

Really? Thats all you have is some conspiracy theory?

You dont have an answer to any of it? Just compiling a bunch of suggestions that that arent even that great and will pull damage from other sources and possibly nerf the source that you want buffed?

Where is that crit scaling going to come from? Obliterate itself? Frost Strike? FF? Remorseless Winter? You are trying to go over the budget without any compensation, no equivalent exchange, there would be a price for that crit scaling.

If you are going to compile suggestions you should be able to back them up as to why you think its worthy of being on your compiled list. Not to mention Rune Strike was suggested by Kelliste. You know the one you have some weird jaded lover relationship with that you just troll them and dont put forward anything constructive when they say anything.

Cope x69
/10char

1 Like

They could just make it another talent so theres an opportunity cost to it.

Also a build that focuses on empowering our rp spender frost strike could be cool. Eradicating blow making obliterate buff it, and shattering strikes making razorice buff it. And maybe something that lets it consume more rp to do more damage or something new and interesting.

1 Like

Fingers cross for the next iteration of Frost DK Talents! HoW will be moved there and still banking on removing Unleashed Frenzy (Still memeing lol).

Maybe they can also make Mind Freeze baseline or something.

5 Likes

For me perfect frost dk talent trees would mean:

Arctic assault as an accessible talent and viable soul reaper for frost, as well as improved killing machine swapping with unleashed frenzy.

I mean they are not wrong about throughput budget. The way specs seem to be balanced is by trying to hit an overall target. So if you ramp up damage on one ability they are going to nerf something else so the overall doesn’t change.

There is an argument about our overall budget not being in line with other specs, particularly when in comes to ST. I really wish they made FS feel impactful to press. Playing WotLK has made me remember how good that ability used to feel.

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Still dont have anything tangable to say? So then why are you posting exactly? I just want to know where this crit damage scaling would come from in the budget that we have. Blizzard is going to aim for a certain dps when tuning because the bosses will be tuned with that number in mind. So if they are aiming for say 20k dps then each ability will have a certain % budget within that 20k dps. If you just increase Obliterate damage though scaling with crit you go over that budget, so where is that going to come from?

Rune strike as well. If you bring up the baseline of Rune Strike which would be taking over for the baseline Obliterate, if you make it more powerful than the baseline Obliterate then where is that power coming from within that budget? So if you have 20k dps target and you increase Obliterates baseline, where is that coming from? You only have a limited amount of damage to work with which is why I said shopping with 100 dollars. If thats all you have you cant go over it so you will have to do without some stuff in order to gain others.

If you dont want nerfs to happen like what happened to Obliterate then you cant do most of this stuff. Its a waste of time to be honest. Just like with the 4pc, it would be reliant on crit, and be adding more to the damage budget and if people dont want there to be any discrepancies between the weapons then it should be available to DW as well because KM shouldnt be more powerful on a 2h weapon than it is on a DW weapon set. Some people hate DW so much they dont want DW to have anything which those people shouldnt be listened to at all.

This also just shows the issue with trying to have 2 weapons trying to do 2 different things.

Make them stat sticks and redesign the spec already because this argument is never going to end. Never. One is going to be ahead and whichever weapon set isnt again the people that like playing with that weapon set will complain that its behind… ALWAYS.

I understand throughput budget, but balance on abilities is a dev issue. Frost dk has pretty much always been behind the pack in ST scenarios anyway, so there wouldn’t be any major balance concerns in addressing the flow and impact of certain abilities. However, that’s not at all what this thread is about, as it is merely a collection of ideas frost players have popularized on this forum and others like Reddit. Arguing for the sake of arguing, especially in such a whiny and hostile way, is something I’m tired of people thriving on in these discussions.

2 Likes

An idea that brings about a nerf is a bad idea. So its not just a dev issue if something nerfs something else in the rest of the kit.

Do you want Obliterate to be nerfed again with this crit scaling idea? If you dont want it to then dont include it in the compiled idea list because its a bad idea. Popular or not, its bad. Obliterate can also cleave so there is that balance to consider as well.

Then dont go around ignoring what people are asking and talking about other players because im tired of those people thriving on these discussions. If you want a discussion then shut up about Kelliste. If you want to lambast others then go to twitter, there is plenty of people there to do that to.

You literally are Kelliste. Arguments based on logical fallacies intended only to take away from a productive discussion by shifting the focus to problems that exist only in your head. Turning something inherently positive and hopeful into doom and gloom doesn’t make for good conversation.

But just to humor you, all the problems you’re pointing out have pretty simple fixes via numbers tuning if necessary. If frost dk was a top performing spec in ST or AOE, nerfs would be justified to shift the damage profile, but as it stands, making a few of these changes would hardly make the spec broken in any type of content. It’s not as simple as “spec have 100 dollars to spend” when other specs in the game have 120 while others have only 80.

1 Like

And you can 100% pull the damage out of KM, and by extension BoS and Gathering Storm, and into the main abilities without any issue.

KM should be a choice node between 100% crit chance or 100% Frost damage, not both. That’s the only way Obliterate can actually deal somewhat decent damage again outside of procs & Obliteration. Doing that would siphon a lot of power out of KM/Obliterate, which would allow Howling Blast & Frost Strike to have more power baked into them instead, and allow baseline Obliterate to also do more.

There’s plenty of ways to create a healthy profile that doesn’t have Frost revolving around CDs and procs to do decent damage. This wasn’t remotely as large of a problem in Legion when KM just made Obliterate crit and the spec wasn’t tuned around Gathering Storm + BoS.

6 Likes

That means nerfs. No one wants to be nerfed thats why they are trying to have Obliterate scale with crit to buff it, why to have rune strike to buff Obliterate baseline, to have 4pc as a talent and so on. Its all meant to buff the spec.

It is a top performing spec overall.

https ://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29#region=2&dataset=90

Even in CN it was doing good.

Any examples or are you just going to do what you did in this thread?

Then you dont want to have a conversation if you dont want the negatives pointed out to you. You want an echo chamber and yes men.

Oh, and shut up about Kelliste. They are your baba yaga and using them to find friends. Get off the jaded lover train and speak to the issue.

All I’m gonna say is mortal strike is 174% damage even after the nerfs, has a very minor cooldown that’s incredibly easy to reset via two talents with great proc chances, AND has modifiers to give it 140% bonus damage from stacks via overpower and execute.

Slam also deals more damage than frost strike, so there’s that.

This idea that obliterate sometimes hitting very hard based on random procs will make the spec too strong has no basis in reality compared side by side with other specs’ single target focused abilities.

And if cleave is a concern, my good friend sweeping strikes says hello.

4 Likes

Yeah I would love to move some damage out of our passives and back into it button presses. Or at least have talents allow us to make this change.

3 Likes

i think a talent that really changes up the gameplay and makes us less reliant on km procs is a fine idea, but i really don’t want the proc based gameplay gone entirely.

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That’s also where I can present arms, which is the superior proc-based spec in my opinion.

Overpower resets and buffs mortal strike while slam and mortal strike reset overpower, sudden death procs grant a free execute outside of execute range, and execute will also buff mortal strike, spending rage via anger management (nearly all abilities) lowers colossus smash cooldown. (Why icecap can’t function the same way is beyond me.)

I know I sound like an arms simp, but I genuinely do prefer the way it plays because it flows so much better. I know mortal strike will hit hard without a random proc to make it do actual damage vs obliterate which is reliant on autos, the least interesting part of a kit, to function.

That being said, dk class fantasy is my absolute favorite, especially frost, and I genuinely hope they can put something interesting together in DF because I often find myself missing Acherus.

4 Likes

I’m a simple man. I want arctic assault back, soul reaper to be good, and for unleashed frenzy to be swapped in position for improved killing machine. But i know a lot of people are itching for the entire spec to magically be reworked in it’s entirety when i think it’s existing playstyles are great. But they’re obviously not without their problems of course. I’m definitely not against having a new talent that completely changes the playstyle. Just as long as it’s a capstone and is as balanced to be as powerful as sindrag.

Arms simp? I’m sure you’ll find your soul mate, the legs simp out there somewhere. If you find the torso and the head simp you can voltron the whole thing to become the ultra powerful proc machine!

3 Likes