FROST DK PVP Arena problem and fix

This post is addressing the current problem with Frost viability arenas.

This is going to be long winded because we need to address what is factoring in the flawed design of frost DK’s.

Frost currently only has one viable way of winning an arena match. It’s Chill streak cleave setup.

However this is fundamentally flawed…

Getting multiple chill streak bounces against grouped targets within the bounce radius is unreasonable. Mobility from the opposing comps will mitigate after 2-3 bounces. The only viable why in 2’s to get more bounces is with WW or Rsham cap totem. Which requires a high skill cap, which is only attainable for high elo arena players. Even then the positioning and timing required to achieve a successful chill streak opener is not worth the hassle of playing with a frost when there are more viable easier to play sustain comps.

The other problem with our Chill streak cleave window is that it’s mutual exclusive with our single target burst window, which is POF. Resulting in POF being saved exclusively for a cleave and nothing else.

Combine that with non existent sustained damage outside of POF. Frost becomes a one trick cleave pony. Outside of POF utility in terms of chains of ice is worth more than non existent obliteration damage.

The problem with Frost sustain.

Obliteration does no damage.

Our current stat distribution with pvp gear is VERS MASTERY.

Frost needs more damage outside of its POF window. Especially because that is being reserved for a hail Mary cleave attempt at best.

We have no sustain because we cannot afford to take crit over mastery. Because it will destroy our synergy with our POFs crit window due to the Obliteration talent.

Thus we have no killing machine procs for our obliterate. Frost strike hits much harder than non crit - Obliterations because They do not scale with mastery without Killing Machine!

What solutions could be chosen to fix these issues

Should our chill streak damage be increased?

No, If Chill Streak was allowed to reliable bounce for its full 9 bounces consistently it would be OP. Comps should be able to mitigate such a powerful burst cleave if played properly.

However in saying this I believe an increase to buff range from 6-12 yards with a 20-30% damage reduction in chill streaks damage would be the appropriate answer.
This will improve the utility of the spell by improving its bounce consistency. Allowing for the slowing effect of chill streak to be more impactful. Also will allow us to not have to use POF for our cleave window. We need to move away from relying on Chill Streak and have more diversity in terms of damage options.

Where should we get our damage from?

Our Killing machine. Killing machine needs a buff. A substantial one at that. Or a complete rework as to what procs it. Currently you’ll be lucky to get 1 maybe 2 killing machine procs running 2h Oblit build in arenas.

Killing machine procs need to have a strong enough impact outside of POF to initiate a POF burst onto a target.

SOLUTION 1

  • Frost strike provides a stacking killing machine increased proc rate. Buff frost strike damage ~20-25%

  • Reduce rime procs, allow more GCD usage on RP spenders, allow the greater damage vs survivability reward between DS and FS.

  • reduce RP cost of DS and frost strike.

SOLUTION 2 (more elegant)

  • Improve FS damage 30% increase RP cost by 5.

  • Killing machine has a chance to PROC off HITS not CRITS, much like UH DK’s Sudden doom.

  • Allow Killing machine to stack twice. Like UH’s Harbringer of Doom talent.
    OR
    Improve Killing machine PROC chance.

  • Reduce rime procs.

This will also allow us to choose Haste from more consistent PROCS over bigger hits from mastery.
This will also allow us to improve our number of crits based off our haste through Killing machine procs.

This will also improve the Viability of the ICECAP talent. For Frost DK’s who want a higher sustain damage build.

Also

  • ADD FROSTWHELPS INDIGNATION to ICECAP talent.

Cheers.

6 Likes

FS definitely needs a buff. Our spender is cringe. Be it with shattering strikes (my preferred change)

Not sure if just a flat 20-30% dam buff is the play. Shattering strikes would give it more damage, and make it more interesting to use.

1 Like

I don’t think these problems are exclusive to PvP. It suffers in PvE as well.

Frost RP spender is kinda meh especially if you’re not running a BoS build. While BoS is pretty much gimped in PvP, it’s a defining ability for PvE much like Chill Streak is for PvP. Kinda wish that Chill Streak was available for PvE though and make it consistent with other Lv 15 talents after proper tuning of course.

Basically, you’re asking for a baseline Obliteration but without a 30% rune generation, a stacking KM, a nerf to Rime Proc, and less chances to replenish a rune. A Frost Strike costs 25 rp and each rp gives 2% chance to replenish the most depleted rune.

You want RP to be more impactful than this, Frost Strike dammie increase won’t help. If anything, spending GCD on RP would only make the resource worse. DS is a completely different story as it is more used for PvP than niche applied PvE.

The problem with this solution would make GCD far too paramount for Frost Dks as runes would be deflated from this.

This will reduce the stat weight of Critical Strike considerably as Crit is used to function as a spec in PvE. In PvP, players are wise enough to not get hit your AA often than NPCs that do get your hit by AA. In fact, Crit is weird for Frost: It scales both proportionally and inverse proportionally with the spec, and with it has a buff that’s inverse proportionate, your mastery affects it. I’m talking about KM58.

KM is not really equivalent to Sudden Doom. Currently, Unholy has more options with RP than Frost. In fact, a lot of proc related buffs for Frost relates to rune spending while Unholy relates to runic power. Nerfing Rime procs will nerf your burst potential.

As I already stated that you want RP to be more impactful, increasing RP by 5 would increase the RP->Rune replenish chance from 50% to 60%. It’s still RNG which is one of my main gripes with Frost Strike as it is a weak ability compared to Death Coil which has a synergy with the rest of Unholy’s kit more than Frost Strike ever will.

As Nethy stated, RP is currently a really bad resource for Frost and I don’t think increasing/decreasing its damage is necessarily the solution. It’s a solution. But not the solution that Frost suffers with RP.

I agree. Personally I like where you’re going with Solution 2. Double stacks of KM, better chance to proc, and buff the hell out of FS would be a nice change.

CS is great when you’re able to get one off, but as we all know its a complicated setup. What other class has such a hard time bursting? Death grip, grippy hands, blind, dragon leggo, pof, CS, pray they don’t get out of it for a few bounces. I’d be happy with wings + delete enemy team, or spear + 20k ms & executes…

2 Likes

Shadowlands PvP system with vers as main stat just sucks. The spec doesn’t function with 2H and 5% crit. Also chill streak is lame just remove it and let me smash the enemy.

2 Likes

Frost dks don’t need chill streak to win games technically, in most double caster matchups it isn’t even played tbh

2 Likes

i main a frost dk.
he has maxxed honor gear in all slots.
here’s how my most recent bgs have gone:
i have the least hks, least damage, almost no killing blows and among the most deaths.
the way i survive in battles like ashran is to hang back and use my aoes (which is not the way a plate wearing player should need to play)
i would like to think that with maxxed honor gear, i would at least have a shot at being competitive and at least somewhat of a factor in bg outcomes but this is no longer the case.
once i get targetted, my lifespan is very brief.
this class is no longer viable.

4 Likes

Purely a l2p issue. FDK tops dam in rbgs and never dies.

3 Likes

Icecap baseline or higher up in the talent tree would be nice

1 Like

i just looked up dps by class/spec - frost dk is ranked 20th out of 24 with less than 1% of the player base bothering with this broken, squishy mess.

it’s also a bit weird that such a dominant class is played by so few…

1 Like

I second this. I feel like an unstoppable killing machine in BGs

Frost is fine. The reason you don’t see it more is, in my opinion, people find it boring and it’s lacking in tools compared to say, a warrior/monk/hunter. It’s essentially a one trick pony; set up for chill streak and coordinate goes with your partner to secure kills.

That’s not to say it doesn’t do some insane damage when it wants to, or have some very strong defensives; it absolutely does. However, warriors and paladins are doing way more damage than us, have more versatile utility than us, and have a way easier kill set up than us. So why would anyone even want to play a frost dk when you can be one of those? Frost isn’t the best melee, but it is by no means nearly as bad as you’re making it out to be

It’s kind of funny that the fact that majority of your dammies are tied around something that’s not part of your core kit and have your whole loadout revolve around it.

I mean seriously. Why can’t Chill Streak be available for PvE? For PvE, RW is the game and is completely different from PvP.

Not to mention PvPers use Eradicating Blow thanks to their 30% dammie increase to make it worth using now. Runic Power seems more valuable in PvP than in PvE.

Frost is not unplayable by any means (this also means PvP even though there are a lot of BS but justified PvP modifiers out there like 66% less BoS in PvP lol…) but it still has a lot of things to be desired like oh I don’t know…

… maybe make Runic Power spending not completely random.

Frost needs armor
thost pvp mods need to be removed pvp should be a free for all and no part of it is fair

that thing we used to have that made sometimes we couldn’t be cc’d and if we where it was shorter needs to be brought back pve pvp

runic att should that be baseline???

bring back unbreakable armor replaces pof also makes it 20 sec and removes that spend rune get increases damage

Permafrost talent: turns a % of all frost damage in an abortion shield, instead of just your basic attacks

oh and taking the damage of AA and FF and putting it back into abilities would be a huge help

PvE =/= PvP

L2P issue

https ://ibb.co/ ctBPdqc

Whoever has the trust level to post the pic instead of the link be my guest. Pretty common for Frost to top dam in RBGs.

Single target maybe, but we pad the meters with a lot of useless damage.

Guess I don’t have the trust level anymore. Sad face.

1 Like

Padding meters ooming healers, baby.

Bfa vers was king too.

Remove vers as a stat because it makes pve boring too. Bring back resil

And make resil a tertiary stat that is always on pvp gear. How you would stop people from farming pvp gear for pve… dont know.

1 Like

You don’t, you just make pve gear better for pve, you feel me?

1 Like