Frost Dk change opinions And Class Design Philosophy?

Classes Death Knight
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Hey I have been reading a lot of posts on the new frost dk changes and wanted to join in and add my two cents. Hopefully, I don’t sound like a complete idiot, though I could handle being a partial one.

I think the DK base changes are evidence or a bigger problem in WoWs current design philosophy. In putting out an expansion they decide to make class changes and system changes (I.e. conduits, covenants, Azeroth armor, artifact weapons, etc). Now I understand that they wish to keep the game fresh and new while at the same time balance each class and spec with every other class and spec (a task they have never fully accomplished from my understanding). However, they try to rework a class at the base level and at the new system level as well instead of only focusing on the new system layered into the base class/spec.

I’m of the opinion that classes/specs shouldn’t change in a base function and performance. A class shouldn’t be functional because of the corruption or the conduits it may have available. Rather it should function well then the new system should be the fresh concept- this makes it so that if there is a number problems you altar are in the new system rather than the base class/spec. By not having a functional base class/spec they make more issues when trying to introduce a new system every expansion and bring down the quality of their classes and gameplay. They find that their new systems cause issues with classes and gameplay and instead of fixing the system they try to tweek or fix the base class.

Here is an imperfect analogy: think of a cake. There is the base cake and the icing/toppings are the change. The icing and the toppings make the cake different without changing the ingredients of the cake. Blizzard is trying to add different types of icing (systems such as conduits) to a cake (class/spec) and they are finding that cake doesn’t taste good with their icing choice. So, instead of reworking the icing on top of the cake they rework the ingredients of the cake. When this happens they end up marking a worse cake and icing combo then when they began. The class changes and the new systems feel bad because blizzard has focused on fixing the wrong parts of the way a class functions. But the problems don’t stop there. When you change expansions and you want to add yet another new system you have to change even more of the base class to fit the end game system. If your class works as a whole before the new system then it makes your job easier in the future.

Let’s go to DK. And to be honest I’m not an expert like others and my experience relies mainly on ptr builds (Please forgive me if I’m misrepresenting information on the reasons for nerfs).The new frost dk nerfs make the class feel weak and incapable. I understand that when Shadowlands fully hits the number will supposedly even themselves out due to end game systems, but the base of the class feels bad in my opinion. This seems to me to be bad class design. Frost DK shouldn’t see nerfs to base abilities rather to their new system interactions (the place where the main problems seem to express themselves). If someone is two-shoting other classes when they have the right conduits equipped, or covenant chosen, the answer isn’t to mess with Pillar of Frost but to mess with the conduits. When Blizzard decides to make these changes they create problems for the future.

Admittedly, I hate any nerfs to the classes I like to play in general. And of course I think most of us want Frost or Unholy DK to be top dog all day every day. But these nerfs seem to be examples of bad game design philosophy.

I also recognize that some specs only work with the right systems (fire mages and corruption)- this is what I believe to be bad base class design. The base class should be designed and balanced well first then the new system should add flair. If the new system doesn’t work rework the system not the class.

So, all that said, I think the nerfs made to Frost Dk are bad, especially the Pillar of Frost nerf. Though I’m hopeful all will work out, I don’t have much faith due to manner in which blizzard works on their classes.

Now I didn’t know exactly where to add this last part, but here it goes. I don’t think those worried about the class functions during prepatch are totally off base because normally it’s the only time to really see how a base class works without the new systems. And if the base class doesn’t work well then that’s a sign of problems for the future.

2 Likes
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The only real changes they made was

  1. nerfing obliterate and adding a second rank so it’s not busted strong until lvl 60

  2. Changing pillar of front to better align with other Cooldowns.

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To be fair the second rank of Obliterate was already there, from the best of my knowledge. The Lvl.50 obliterate didn’t seem crazy overpowered, I watched many duels and match’s on ptr where frost ska weren’t outclassing other specs due to Obliterate.

The pillar of frost cooldown does sync better, admittedly. But it is shorter, and make obliteration build feel worse. Which seems to make it a far less desirable trait. Personally not where I think the “balancing” should occur .

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This isn’t about level 50 though.

Because it was massively overperforming compared to Breath and Icecap. That was the goal, to bring it back down.

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It was doing like 60+% of overall damage, it was overturned.

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So, just to make sure I’m on the same page. Are you saying the nerf was due to the way the class preformed at the endgame level?

If that’s what you mean, I think you may be misled on how being of a dps difference there was. Notice that long interview between Sloot and many major Dk players from about 4days who. BoS was still the better pick for dps if played properly- this was at the endgame level.

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Yes, DW Obliteration specifically, and 2H Obliteration were overperforming compared to Breath builds and Icecap builds.

It’s not just me saying it :

Who ?

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I shouldn’t have said “many dk players” that’s false. It was 3- one being bisceppumps- who I would argue is a credible dk reference

This is the video I’m referencing.

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The same bicepspump I literally quoted for you ?

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Yes, same one. And I took that to mean that the reason the preformed the nerfs that they did was because they could “directly” tune the talent. He then explains their (blizzards) intention. I’m not seeing the contradiction.

Either way, it is still poor game design as I mentioned and explained in the original post.

That being said it’s super late for me, thanks for the conversation :grin:

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I think having a balanced talent row is actually good design. The whole issue with that row prior was Breath overshadowing everything. It’s good to see Blizzard to not repeat that mistake.

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Forgive me, what I meant was the poor game design comes from the new systems interaction with the talent row, not the tuning between the talents. I agree that I want the talents to be more inline with each other, but they are not tuning the talents based on the talents themselves but their interactions with the conduits. This means the tuning should be with the conduits not the abilities. The reason I believe this is a bad thing is because it cause even more issues in the long run, which I went into earlier. Sorry for any confusion

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Without even the new systems coming into play, Obliteration was already over performing.

Sims might not be able to run Covenant/Soulbinds/Conduits yet, but they can run the base class at level 60, and that showed quite clearly that Obliteration was too far ahead :

Conduits and Soulbinds only furthered this, as they don’t really help Breath gameplay. This is why Obliteration need to come down.