The reconstruction of Brill is underway. Many of the foundations are completed which indicates that the town will look almost exactly as it did before being razed.
However, the pedestal for the statue of Sylvanas is missing!
Does this mean there are no plans to reinstall it? Should it be? What are your thoughts on whether or not the statue of Sylvanas should be put up again?
Non-Forsaken imput welcome too.
Sylvanas irreparably tarnished her own legacy by siding against Azeroth and being stupid enough to believe that the foul creature who created Frostmourne and inflicted this curse of undeath upon all of us against our will was some sort of misunderstood creature. She started wars, lost us territory, got our people killed, abandoned us in our darkest hour. Sylvanas Windrunner is excrement under my shoe, and she deserves only to be remembered as a curse and a warning. There will be no honors or memorials for her slime.
Symbols are important but I believe that the era of creating a cult out of a leader should end.
I am more interested in how or if the Undercity itself will be restored and in what manner. I have⌠personal⌠interest in some of the records that may be salvaged.
She did tarnish her legacy and was strangely stupid for siding with the Jailer. However the bigger fool would be the one who believed in her so passionately. Had they been a little more skeptical and had not validated everything she did, perhaps she would have reflected more on her legacy and thought about things without the haze of praise.
She also won wars, gained territory, and created more Forsaken. Her abandonment only seemed like our darkest hour because of how enthralled many were with her.
I think the statue must stay up because of all the Forsaken which clung so tightly to her. We should acknowledge the accomplishments of the Dark Lady and have a tangible reminder of how it all went wrong. Otherwise there will be an increasing rift between Forsaken in support of Calia and those against. Also, so we can catch it earlier when Calia becomes the problem.
Sylvanas statue taken down.
Some kind of memorial tablet in place of it beneath a double statue of 2 generic Forsaken.
Tablet (or two) basically reads a warning of what transpired so nobody makes the same mistake twice, then basically an oath of what the Forsaken SHOULD be about.
Or at least thatâs my take on it.
My character was warning people about Sylvanas even before she pulled the stunt with Teldrassil, but I suppose looking back on it⌠a lot chose not to listen, since heâs from The Void. Heh.
Whatâs she done that deserves a statue? What has she brought to this world besides War and death and terrorism? Sylvanas did not come to power legally. She has no claim to the rulership of Lordaeron. Instead, she seized it through an unholy alliance of militarists, opportunists and reactionaries. She brought shame to our people, she attempted genocide twice, she used illegal bio-weapons, she brought the Horde to its second civil war in less than ten years. Under her rule, we lost Tirisfal, Shadowfang, Fenris, Southshore, and Arathi.
Basically, Sylvanas trapped the Forsaken in an abusive relationship with her. As astutely proved at the Gathering in Arathi, she had the Forsaken convinced that âYouâre ugly, and no one else will ever love you but me. So you have no choice but to stay with me.â And when some Forsaken attempted to defy this relationship, she murdered them for it. She is a disgusting, repulsive abuser and violator of mortal rights and if there was any justice in this world, she would be twisting in the maw alongside her pathetic Nathanos. Soulness. Honorless. Weeping. Ashamed.
I like an idea another person had about building a sort of museum to place it, and other things in. I like it because under Sylvanas the Forsaken were discouraged from holding onto the past. It would be awesome to see them not only abandon that ideal, but to have such a visual expression of remembrance.
In the place of the old one, the two average Forsaken one with the tablet would go along with that.
This makes me smile, and Nos would love to have met you because you are right. Everything in your remark is exactly what most Forsaken choosen not to see. But to answer your question, she deserves a statue for exactly all the things you just said and more.
Because the statue isnât in praise of her as it originally was. It is to show what failure as Forsaken looks like. We are ugly, but deception looks like this.
The whole storyline was hypocritical and the only leader that seemed to understand was actually Lorâthemar. Hereâs why.
Everyoneâs like âOh Anduin did nothing wrong he was dominatedâŚâ Yet fail to understand so was Sylvanas, and for MUCH longer the damage that Anduin was GOING through sheâd been in that place for years. And everyone wants to forgive Anduin, yet hate Sylvanas. Lorâthemar is the only character to remember Sylvanas as she was before her becoming the Banshee Queen.
Itâs only logical if you can forgive Anduin, you can forgive Sylvanas. Someone will claim she broke free back in vanilla, but the damage on her psyche was done by then. Even Anduin explained everytime the magic was used he lost another part of himself, imagine how Anduin would of been if the Jailer straight up killed and raised him.
Who says we forgive Anduin? What makes his suffering any more profound that the rest of our traumatized characters? He abandons his post as leader of the Alliance because of his trauma, but people who have gone through worse than he has have gotten straight back up and stayed in the fight because they didnât hear no bell.
But Sylvanas was never dominated. This is made very clear in the Sylvanas novel. Not since she was an incorporeal Banshee in Warcraft 3. And given that 2 years passes in Shadowlands compared to the months that pass in Reign of Chaos + The Frozen Throne, I would argue that Anduin was actually dominated for longer than Sylvanas was. Everything Sylvanas did was of her own will and volition because the Jailer duped her into thinking that once he had ultimate power, he would establish a fair and just system of peaceful afterlives for everybody.
I mean, I know she was deprived of part of her soul, but was she deprived part of her brain? That stupid, degenerate, idiot.
In character response ((none of us are the living dead so youâll have to excuse some artistic license)):
None of the living can understand what it means to be Forsaken⌠the dead who are not. Being locked in a nightmare bereft of hope.
Yes, Sylvanus made her choices. And yes, I do not agree with them. But, I do UNDERSTAND them. All Forsaken most likely do.
Would I have made similar choices in her place? I would like to think that I would not. But until put in to such a position one can never truly know.
But the choices were made and they were wrong. âWhispers beyond Azerothâ should always be treated with at least pragmatism if not outright distrust initially.
I Feel that I have learned my lesson well. Trust and Loyalty must be earned as it is the most valuable currency in our existence. It is the tender of the soul.
If a monument is to be raised let it be dedicated to the start of this⌠Friendship. Let it be testament to the loyalty we should earn with each other rather to some figurehead.
Even creating a statue of the Dark Lady to serve as a âbad exampleâ is dangerous, as symbols have a habit to becoming more than the material used to create them.
Can she be forgiven? That would depend on who you ask of course. I can forgive her choices but not her actions.
Does her punishment fit the crime. Ah, there is an argument. To those who would argue for a simple execution that would be an easy way out. Her labors in the Maw are a start but wether this is enough I will not hazard a comment at this time.
((From and OOC perspective if she experienced the death she caused for every soul she recovered from the Maw, I think that would be darn close. Imagine having to experience all those deaths by the very choices you made.))
This is only because of the weak minded and those weak of spirit. Removing a symbol doesnât fix the problem. Educating people and inspiring them are much more efficient. Although, strictly speaking the statue wasnât taken down, it was collateral damage from war.
That would be a better punishment. I wonder if it would make her numb though. Somehow making her less empathetic.
One personâs education is anotherâs propaganda. One personâs propaganda is anotherâs religion.
Please understand that I am not devaluing your input. Rather, this was an old quote from my Mentor and friend about how such things always have a caution to them.
Nothing is a perfect solution. It is always a compromise and we must be diligent.
Although, strictly speaking the statue wasnât taken down, it was collateral damage from war.
Would be interesting to leave the remains (if there are any) intact. That would be in interesting statement indeed.
Saying she was never then immediately saying since is counter productive to your point. It canât be both, the point was at some point she was dominated, in death not in life her very essence was forcibly brought back to serve something Anduin has yet to experience. Not to mention sheâs experienced the maw before or the shadowlands at a minimum either after Icecrown or Gilneas I canât exactly remember.
And when I said everyone forgave Anduin I was more or less talking about the Alliance leaders. They all simply move past it like itâs nothing mind you Jaina herself saw what the outcome of what he was experiencing with Arthas. It makes no sense for them to be so forgiving towards him, but think of everyone else scenario as different.
Many great revolutionaries have turned into poor, if not terrible, statesmen. Yet their revolutionary image and what they stood for continues to inspire despite potentially poor decisions made while later in charge. A statue of Sylvanas, or her apart of a wider piece, in the context of her as a revolutionary fighter who brought the Forsaken freedom should remain in some way.
I think many of us look at this from an OOC perspective where (and this should be at the forefront of the conversation) the recent-ish decision makers and narrative leads at Blizzard created such an assbackward story for us that has left such a sour taste no one wants to see Sylvanas ever again, despite prior her being one of the better or best designed characters in game. We dont want to see Sylvanas due to their choices.
However, Forsaken as a whole may have a greater mixed feelings about retaining some identity around Sylvanas. Perhaps not right away, raw feelings of losing a home and war, but certainly are and will be those who continue to see Sylvanas as a liberator and revolutionary wanting a physical representation of this. A fun addition to this rebuilt/new statue could be a poor olâ geezer Forsaken who gives a brief history of Sylvanas and the complexities of the character. Perhaps even as an in-game cinematic.
Recall Grom even has a memorial piece in Demonfall Canyon. The orc who both helped liberate the orcs, while also potentially enslaving them once again to the Legion, with orcs still making pilgrimages to the site. Characters can be complex.
This is why itâs a little hard to keep it separate from IC and RW.
The conversations have basically caused me to change my mind from build it, into something more like this.
Iâve always imagined that every Statue in the capital was of some critical character in Lordaerons HistoryâŚ
Sylvanas was not a native of Lordaeron nor a practitioner of its ancestral faith, But she was party to a significant chapter in Lordaeron history.
I am in favor of a statute. Maybe not a courtyard piece but one of the many statues lining the many hallways & walls of the capital.
Failing that; maybe a nice portrait for the dining hall?