[For the Bored] Thought-Experiment / Workshop: A Bloat-less Class Tree (and Improved Tree Allowances)

Classes Hunter
1

Use of Talent Tree Manager, linked Google Doc, or linked image and Top-to-bottom-and-Left-to-Right readout recommended.

Imagine that all Talent Trees are being rehauled with an emphasis on ensuring that each and every talent is satisfying in itself, permitting no “bloat” beyond some fringe talents (on which no gameplay-affecting talents rely) by which players may choose to forgo additional complexity.

For the purposes of this thread, let us define bloat as anything that simply does not change how it feels to play a class, offering no additional optimizations nor changes to existing ones. And, for our context, let us baseline every skill that is both iconic and enjoyable to some 80+% of players using the class/spec.

Your task here, then, is to design a "bloat-less" Class Tree for which every talent is satisfying.

However, let us add some further allowances:

  • Again, you can baseline most utility skills and those that are widely iconic and desired for their gameplay (and are encouraged to make into talents only what you figure some people might not want to be encouraged/obliged to bother with).
  • You can include up to 3 choices per Choice node (renamed Clusters), and choice nodes now have a maximum count of anywhere from 1 choice that the player may take to all 3 choices.
  • You can allow Clusters and Passives both to be pathed through after any number of points are taken (e.g., after 2 out of 3 cluster choices are taken, or after 1 out of 2 points of the passive are taken).
  • You can include combo talents (such as Paladin’s Auras of the Resolute and Auras of Swift Vengeance).
  • You can include and work around new customization sub-systems, such as Beast Training (or Wildcraft or what have you), even with points assignable to them.
  • You can make nodes as conditional as you like (to prior talent choices, spec, etc.).
  • You can include up to 4 free-path nodes (see Metamorphosis, etc.) per tier.
  • You are allowed to indirectly mess around with Focus, if you like, to make it less a copy of Energy.
  • You may assume whatever changes you like to the three specs, or even add a spec.
  • And you can aura-tune and adjust the talents of each spec individually afterwards to solve any excesses of power/utility that you’ve caused through this new class tree.

So, what might your Class Talent Tree look like?

2

I think before any discussion can start there needs to be an actual definition of bloat in the context of a talent tree

3

Given that the goal here is for each talent to be individually satisfying, let us tentatively define “bloat” as anything that provide nothing new to gameplay that shouldn’t already have been baselined, such as something that…

  • Is strong enough to compete with individually interacting and satisfying talents but is not itself interesting or satisfying to basically anyone (such as a simple 5% damage increase talent without thereby newly making a skill competitive in new situations),
  • Exists only to oblige menu-play over gameplay (swapping talents from an obviously and consistently best choice for content broad category A to content broad category B), and/or
  • Holds hostage to talent points iconic and (nearly) always desirable utility (that would therefore be better off baselined) or is required to make a baselined skill actually viable anyways.
4

I know we’ve had this discussion before. As this is an experiment of sorts, where you aim to find out what talent trees could be like without such talents, I would just like to nudge the thought that some players do actually prefer passive talents, talents that don’t provide anything but pure damage in general, or to specific abilities.

Personally, like you, I don’t find those particularly interesting, and I would certainly want to keep them at a minimum. But, keeping talent trees completely void of such talents, I think would be a mistake. I think the better approach would be to find a way for players to pursue their preferences, rather than simply eliminating a certain type altogether.

If anything, I see the definition of “bloat” as a case where you have multiple talents doing the same thing. Within the scope of purely passive talents, I’d say it’s the case where you have for example several talents, all providing additonal passive damage to Kill Command, or similar. Another case would be where you have several different talents, all related to a certain type of reset mechanic of a specific ability. Again, just a few examples.

5

How many posts until ranged SV tree rework gets posted

6

I agree and have advocated having low-net-cost options for reduced complexity many times in the past. But again, this is just a little experiment to focus first on the parts that seem the more difficult.

The context for it? Probably not long. But this is just for the Class Tree, not the Specialization Trees.