Flying: Why must we wait until 8.2?

[Softbottom-proudmoore (Softbottom)]

The 6 million sub drop that occurred right after removal of flight would like to have a word with you.

[Iplql-emerald-dream]

Real immersive killing Matron Morana for the 40th time.

[Velara-gilneas (Velara)]

Which shows why world PvP no longer occurs. Not because of flying mounts but because players don’t see it as anything enjoyable or desirable unless they outnumber the opposing side by 5 to 1. Because there’s no reward in it compared to the ease of instanced PvP.

The real reason WPvP was popular was for a while it was the only form available. I remember when PvP still went on, though, and just because it was inconvenient and didn’t come with a reward didn’t mean we didn’t go out and look for it. On the realms I played on you could reliable form WPvP if you were persistent enough, but flying mounts definitely a contributing factor.

WPvP worked in Vanilla because it was organic. You could just spontaneously join (or instigate) a fight.

Now, you have to go to a major city and turn on WM – no more discretionary flagging; no more spontaneity, WPvP is flat.

The only reward was the fun of it; the great battles at Crossrads, Astranar, Hillsbrad. . . Southshore… I fondly remember them all.

I recall being on a Horde toon at Tarren Mill one Sunday afternoon when a swarm of gnomes of all different classes charged in to attack. Gnomes in plate; leather; robes, with shields, staves and daggers… it was hilarious. We were laughing so hard that it was hard to remember we were fighting them LOL…

I also miss Bonus Honor BG weekends… those were awesome. For that matter, I miss honor points and PvP vendors. MoH drop so infrequently they should just be a premium currency you occasionally get instead of the only PvP stuff you get that is worthwhile.

Off point from flying, I know.

I don’t think player flight was an issue except on PvP servers.

[Kipcork-malganis]

The original intent before legion to remove flying from the game altogether is still the best option and the one wanted by most players.

You are so incredibly wrong, it’s not even funny.

They wanted to remove flying during WoD, lost about 6 million subs or so and then introduced pathfinder because the majority of players wanted flying and were willing to quit over it.

[Velara-gilneas (Velara)]

The original intent before legion to remove flying from the game altogether is still the best option and the one wanted by most players.

You are so incredibly wrong, it’s not even funny.

They wanted to remove flying during WoD, lost about 6 million subs or so and then introduced pathfinder because the majority of players wanted flying and were willing to quit over it.

Almost.
They wanted to remove flying in WoD and forward to “save dev money.”

Instead, they lost about 6 million subs and realized they couldn’t remove flight. Rather than taking that gracefully, the devs created pathfinder, which expended more dev resources than just letting well alone. They also created FP whistles, FP NPCs, portals, artwork for portal loadscreens; gliders and feathers as player flight replacements.

Pathfinder was a rude gesture from them to us.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

Combat and warfare are pointless without risk and reward. Trash mobs offer neither.

The decision to run through trash mobs comes with the risk of being dazed or pulling more than you can handle, but might reward you with expediency. The decision to choose a less expedient but safer path by going around or choosing the village of blood trolls between you and your goal is another choice.

It’s clear on the face of it how those trash mobs are integral part of the risk/reward decision making of navigating through the world, but you’re willfully choosing to ignore it, or the rewards just aren’t what you think they should be.

The inconvenience of ground travel forcing the “risk reward” decisions about avoiding trash you seem so fond of, combined with the lack of tangible rewards in most of the WQs, makes it less than fun.

Is flying travel the only solution to an unsatisfying ground travel experience?

I don’t know why people keep bringing up flight paths. I was never making the argument that they were fun.

Flying had nothing to do with this phenomenon.

We’re gonna just have to agree to disagree on this. I’ve heard scores of PvPers complain about how flying mount really quickly brings World PvP to a grinding halt.

There’s no real argument to why we don’t have flying yet.

There’s no great argument for why flying needs to be in the game earlier than 8.2 either.

I don’t think player flight was an issue except on PvP servers.

Considering those were the servers were world PvP happened the most because players were constantly under threat of attack from the other faction, that’s bound to be the case.

Pathfinder was a rude gesture from them to us.

It’s my opinion that Pathfinder is a bandaid fix for a system that could yield a great deal of value from making it better than it currently is. GW2 shows that you can do a great deal about making flying part of your gameplay, not separate from it.

[Velara-gilneas (Velara)]

Combat and warfare are pointless without risk and reward. Trash mobs offer neither.

The decision to run through trash mobs comes with the risk of being dazed or pulling more than you can handle, but might reward you with expediency. The decision to choose a less expedient but safer path by going around or choosing the village of blood trolls between you and your goal is another choice.

It’s clear on the face of it how those trash mobs are integral part of the risk/reward decision making of navigating through the world, but you’re willfully choosing to ignore it, or the rewards just aren’t what you think they should be.

The inconvenience of ground travel forcing the “risk reward” decisions about avoiding trash you seem so fond of, combined with the lack of tangible rewards in most of the WQs, makes it less than fun.

Is flying travel the only solution to an unsatisfying ground travel experience?

I don’t know why people keep bringing up flight paths. I was never making the argument that they were fun.

Flying had nothing to do with this phenomenon.

We’re gonna just have to agree to disagree on this. I’ve heard scores of PvPers complain about how flying mount really quickly brings World PvP to a grinding halt.

There’s no real argument to why we don’t have flying yet.

There’s no great argument for why flying needs to be in the game earlier than 8.2 either.

I don’t think player flight was an issue except on PvP servers.

Considering those were the servers were world PvP happened the most because players were constantly under threat of attack from the other faction, that’s bound to be the case.

Pathfinder was a rude gesture from them to us.

It’s my opinion that Pathfinder is a bandaid fix for a system that could yield a great deal of value from making it better than it currently is. GW2 shows that you can do a great deal about making flying part of your gameplay, not separate from it.

Silly. Your mounts just take you from one place to another. Sometimes I just fly around just to fly. It doesn’t need to be, nor is it, anything other than transportation.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

When they make your ground mount part of gameplay I might see your point. In the meantime, flight just takes me from one place to another. Sometimes I just fly around just to fly. It doesn’t need to be, nor is it, anything other than transportation.

I agree with you. As it stands now though, the only difference between ground mounts and flying mounts is your access to the Z-axis, and that affords you an amount of agency that it trivializes the world. To that extent, being on the ground means you have to make choices in your locomotion, if you go around the camp, through the camp, and if you think you can survive the fall damage, just jump from the ledge.

There are many more meaningful choices in how you move on the ground compared to how you move in flying that while neither of them constitute much in the way of gameplay or character customization (apart from just visuals), so it’s much closer to gameplay than being able to fly.

Where I disagree is that it doesn’t need to be more than it is. I absolutely think that it does, and I don’t think players should settle for less.

Edit: Not sure why you removed the first line of your post. Do you no longer agree that there’s a point to be made about making mounts part of our gameplay?

[Voltagebaus-black-dragonflight (Voltagebaus)]

Actually there is, it is the fact that players feel forced to stay on to the ground until 8.2 which by then its possible that with the new content, it could be another argus forcing you to still stay on the ground. That in return is just a slap in the face to the players who want to be flying.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

Actually there is, it is the fact that players feel forced to stay on to the ground until 8.2 which by then its possible that with the new content, it could be another argus forcing you to still stay on the ground. That in return is just a slap in the face to the players who want to be flying.

It’s not obvious to me how that’s a good argument.

I think you’d get somewhere if you tried to lay out whether or not flying adds to or takes away from the game and your reasons for why that is.

[Voltagebaus-black-dragonflight (Voltagebaus)]

What I am saying is, if we are given the ability to fly in 8.2 but the new content does not allow us to fly then what is the point in it giving us flying at all? Besides alts and stuff.

[Velara-gilneas (Velara)]

Actually there is, it is the fact that players feel forced to stay on to the ground until 8.2 which by then its possible that with the new content, it could be another argus forcing you to still stay on the ground. That in return is just a slap in the face to the players who want to be flying.

Mounts are just transportation and should never be timelocked or barred by stupid chore lists.

#Pathfinder sucks

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

What I am saying is, if we are given the ability to fly in 8.2 but the new content does not allow us to fly then what is the point in it giving us flying at all? Besides alts and stuff.

That’s fair.

Mounts are just transportation and should never be timelocked or barred by stupid chore lists.

#Pathfinder sucks

Ground mounts aren’t. The requirements are things you’d be doing anyway by virtue of just playing the game.

#Flying is a very shallow system that needs an overhaul

[Andrilynn-bloodhoof (Andrilynn)]

Where I disagree is that it doesn’t need to be more than it is. I absolutely think that it does, and I don’t think players should settle for less.

Do you not understand the Dev team we are fighting against here? This team hates flying and does not want to make anymore content with it in mind. People ARE fighting against that. The first part of that fight, is just keeping flying in the game at all and to make it be in the game sooner then later. It’s also getting them to understand our definition of immersion. When the Dev team finally accepts just how good flying is for this game, and is willing to let us have it sooner, then we can start asking for better content with it in mind.

They are trying to cut corners by making the world more flat and 2D. Which is one reason why they don’t like flying. They have to make a 3D world that works with that. They no longer want to do that cause of laziness, and would RATHER make smaller and smaller continents, and more dumb ways to get around, like more flight paths and stupid whistles. Have you not noticed that with each expac, the new zones have been getting a lot smaller?

Maybe when these Devs wake up and realizes flying is a good thing for this game, then maybe we can expect A LOT more out of them. For right now… just getting them to accept flying at all, has been an uphill battle. They are really bitter and vindictive about it. Pathfinder was put there as punishment for us wanting to keep flying in the game. They are trying to punish us for liking the feature, and you really think you are going to get them to start making content with Flying in mind? You are asking waaaaay too much right now.

[Velara-gilneas (Velara)]

What I am saying is, if we are given the ability to fly in 8.2 but the new content does not allow us to fly then what is the point in it giving us flying at all? Besides alts and stuff.

That’s fair.

Mounts are just transportation and should never be timelocked or barred by stupid chore lists.

#Pathfinder sucks

Ground mounts aren’t. The requirements are things you’d be doing anyway by virtue of just playing the game.

#Flying is a very shallow system that needs an overhaul

I couldn’t disagree more.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

Do you not understand the Dev team we are fighting against here?

I don’t understand them any better than you do, but I can sympathize with the Art Team. They’ve been blowing out their backs carrying these games because they’re the one part of the Warcraft team that’s been progressively getting better as time goes on. The Devs think that flying has trivialized the game and I completely agree. Flying can and has been used as a legal exploit to remove the threat of moving around in the world.

I’m not at all surprised that the Devs have a chip on their shoulder, and I absolutely will lay that at the feet of the playerbase for how entitled they’ve been about it.

They are trying to cut corners by making the world more flat and 2D. Which is one reason why they don’t like flying. They have to make a 3D world that works with that. They no longer want to do that cause of laziness, and would RATHER make smaller and smaller continents, and more dumb ways to get around, like more flight paths and stupid whistles. Have you not noticed that with each expac, the new zones have been getting a lot smaller

You haven’t made an objective case for why flying is good and you refuse to acknowledge the exploitative nature of the system. I honestly don’t see how you can possibly make that point with a straight face. Suramar was a marvel, Kul Tiras and Zuldazar are both bigger nearly every other faction city and are absolutely teeming with life and detail in ways that the other cities don’t come close to. If the world really feels that small to you, it’s probably because you’re too busy flying over it all the time.

They are trying to punish us for liking the feature, and you really think you are going to get them to start making content with Flying in mind? You are asking waaaaay too much right now.

They’re never going to build upon or improve the flying system when it sounds to them like players just want free reign in the sky. Nothing anyone on your side of the fence has said anything other than ‘how dare you restrict me’ or ‘how dare you make me do chores’. It’s no wonder they don’t want to do something that might challenge you or make you work for something, because the people on your side of the camp are just going to cry about it.

The reason why Blizzard will never do a system of flying like we see in Guild Wars 2 is because the people on your side don’t want restrictions, you don’t want something to get better at. You want total, unfettered access to the air at all times and you’ll never settle for anything less.

Blame the devs all you want. I blame this entitled attitude from the players.

[Andrilynn-bloodhoof (Andrilynn)]

Ground mounts aren’t.

Ground mounts are just as pointless as flying mounts by your definition. Why do we need ground mounts? We can run. The only thing they are good for is getting around faster. How you fight mobs and things does not change with ground mounts. In fact, you can use your mounts to outrun trash you don’t want to deal with. If you didn’t have that mount, you would be slower and forced to deal with the trash. How is flying any different? Cause you are in the sky? Thus you are not going to aggro the mobs at all? It’s the same thing. Both forms of transportation are pointless and do nothing but get you some place faster, by your logical stand point that is. There is no content in this game that can’t be done without a ground mount. That I know of. I have not played BfA, but if its like the past expac, I don’t think there is any content that can not be done unless you have a ground mount.

Nothing anyone on your side of the fence has said anything other than ‘how dare you restrict me’ or ‘how dare you make me do chores’. It’s no wonder they don’t want to do something that might challenge you or make you work for something, because the people on your side of the camp are just going to cry about it.

Ah yes, belittle the players for having what they like, changed, by a group of dev’s with an ego and a chip on their shoulder. How are people acting entitled when something they enjoyed was taken away from them by bitter people, and now the only way to get it back, is to jump through as many hoops as these devs wish to throw at us. They say jump, and we are supposed to say “How High”? Every time? For an unknown period of time. People are not acting entitled at all. They just want want they had before. It wasn’t US who changed things. It was the dev team. Now we have people like you who have their noses up in the air, and looking down on players who have had their enjoyment and fun stripped away, and have to deal with nasty insults like “entitled” all because the Dev’s hated a feature players loved and made it into a huge problem when it wasn’t one.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

Ground mounts are just as pointless as flying mounts by your definition. Why do we need ground mounts? We can run. The only thing they are good for is getting around faster. How you fight mobs and things does not change with ground mounts. In fact, you can use your mounts to outrun trash you don’t want to deal with. If you didn’t have that mount, you would be slower and forced to deal with the trash. How is flying any different? Cause you are in the sky?

I agree. Ground mounts are not much better. But because they constrain, you have to do more thinking about your navigating because you’re still vulnerable. If I run through that village, will I get dazed? Well I have the Coarse Leather Barding, so I don’t have to worry about that. Should I go down the mountain trail or can I survive if I just make small hops and not take much fall damage?

Flying basically grants you invulnerability because nothing can reach you or stop you.

So, yes. Being in the sky makes it a different matter. I would welcome an entire overhaul to both ground and flying mounts so that the type of mount i’m using has an impact on the environment I’m taking it into.

I don’t think the Water Strider bug mount should be the only ground mount (or mount at all) that has a special effect. Do you?

Ah yes, belittle the players for having what they like, changed, by a group of dev’s with an ego and a chip on their shoulder.

I’m not belittling the players. I’m saying their entitlement would be the reason the Devs had a chip on their shoulder, if any. And you’re belittling the devs, accusing them of being bitter and lazy. I haven’t said anything of the sort about the people who want flying, except that they might not be very forthcoming about why they want to keep their unfettered access to the Z-Axis.

[Andrilynn-bloodhoof (Andrilynn)]

You haven’t made an objective case for why flying is good and you refuse to acknowledge the exploitative nature of the system. I honestly don’t see how you can possibly make that point with a straight face. Suramar was a marvel, Kul Tiras and Zuldazar are both bigger nearly every other faction city and are absolutely teeming with life and detail in ways that the other cities don’t come close to. If the world really feels that small to you, it’s probably because you’re too busy flying over it all the time.

Open up the map man. Each land mass is getting made smaller and smaller. Maybe its you who is settling for less. Without flying, they can make the worlds smaller and give you less of a world to explore. By way the way, Jade Forrest is a great example of being beautiful both on the ground while you are leveling, and flying around it, after reaching max level and can fly. I enjoy the art of the world from both the ground and air. Just because I want to fly, does not that make that fact false. I enjoy seeing the world they made, from both.

It is also really hard to see everything working together, when you have things blocking your view. Why do people go up high in Cities to marvel at how amazing they look from above? Cause it is a view point where we have the freedom to take everything in. Where as on the ground, you have less perspective to really see everything. Just because I want to fly, does not cancel out that I am not enjoying the world from the ground as well.

For the record, I really didn’t get to fully appreciate Suramar artistically until I was able to see it from above. Seeing the whole city and it’s lay out. When I was in it, I liked the look of the inner buildings, but I was also so busy trying to dodge elites and stuff, that I never had the time to take the whole city in artistically.

[Dayon-wyrmrest-accord (Dayon)]

Open up the map man. Each land mass is getting made smaller and smaller

You’re dead wrong.

WoD was the largest expansion in terms of land mass since Wrath. Legion was a bit smaller, but so far BFA is now one of the largest.

Source:

Also how ironic is it that you’re arguing how small the lands are getting and you still think it’s too inconvenient to get around in without flying?

Edit: If you try to say that Kul Tiras and Zul’dazar by themselves are too small you’d be shifting the goal post.