Flex Size Mythic Raiding After Lockout Period

[Teixir-area-52]

When you play baseball with friends, it doesn’t matter how many players you have, you just cover positions and play ball.

When you play baseball professionally, there must be 9 players in specific positions, period. You can’t just throw a spare person in the outfield, and you don’t just play with 7 because this is a competitive team sport with specific requirements, rules, and rewards.

The existence of professional baseball does not DISALLOW people from playing baseball on weekends with their friends. Those teams just aren’t gonna be featured in the playoffs, or get paid to play.

So why does the existence of professional mythic raid teams dictate casual players’ ability to participate in mythic raid?

We can’t just get 20 people. We are ALL crying about this. Mythic raiders cry about this, because the roster boss shouldn’t be the hardest thing about the game.

We don’t give a crap about race to world first. We aren’t racing. We don’t care. We just want to PLAY THE GAME, at the highest available difficulty, because it’s FUN.

Wanna limit RWF groups to 20 players only? Do it! Great! That’s a professional league, that’s a level the average person doesn’t play on! Don’t let us casuals throw together 13 players and call it RWF-worthy, because we simply aren’t participating in the regulations required by the professional esport team.

Blizz has spent YEARS limiting AND expanding on how we play their game because they want us to experience the content. New expansion? Play through this 6 hour questline to be able to participate in endgame! New zone? No flying! New raid? Casuals, please try LFR! Don’t like LFR? Try storymode! ANYTHING for the entire playerbase to see the content they painstakingly created.

Yet when it comes to mythic raid, we get blocked by number of players.

Bring us flex mythic. Let us see and experience the content.

Competition is for the pros, leave the 20-player requirement specific to RWF pro/esport teams.

[Lemonshark-dalaran]

@Teixir-area-52

Yet when it comes to mythic raid, we get blocked by number of players.

THEN PUG problem solved thank you for coming.

@Teixir-area-52

Bring us flex mythic

this would be a balancing nightmare so no im against this. undoing the lockout sure but not flex thats just a bad idea. undoing the lockout would make it easier to find pugs so im all for that and it solves alot fo your problems.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

@Banaritaz-exodar

We got CE in Emerald Dream, which just happened to be when we went for it. I’m aware that the complexity probably isn’t the same.

To be clear Emerald Nightmare mythic difficulty is not representative in any form of mythic raiding general difficulty. It wasn’t tuned with the new power curve the game offered with m+ combined with artifact weapons and legendaries (which if you got lucky could bring another 10% dmg).

It showed that if you make those power available you have to tune content harder else it gets stomped and stomped it did. It made the game much more grindy since then for people that just wanted to be able to raid mythic without having to invest so much time outside of it. Mythic raiding usually has a 20-25% clear rate and EN had a 50% clear rate which is closer to some heroic raid tier that have some of the lower clear rates being around 60% clear rate. (the highest go around 80-90%)

If you meant Amyrdrassil (Which for me I guess is the emerald dream raid?) that’s another story and Fyrakk/Tindral were still pretty decent end bosses and are fairly recent which is why I guessed that you might not be talking about those when implying in the past with mechanical difference. Amyrdrassil is definitely comparable to new raids.

[Lemonshark-dalaran]

@Zoumz-zuljin

Mythic raiding usually has a 20-25% clear rate and EN had a 50% clear rate

where are you getting these numbers from?

[Snozy-pagle]

@Banaritaz-exodar

We got CE in Emerald Dream, which just happened to be when we went for it. I’m aware that the complexity probably isn’t the same

Emerald Dream is considered the easiest most free CE in the history of this game.

@Banaritaz-exodar

In fact, while the difficulty of the fights themselves may not be to the same level, I’d argue that it’s only gotten EASIER logistically with better tools and the change to PUG’ing.

It’s an argument you would lose.

[Snozy-pagle]

@Teixir-area-52

play.

So why does the existence of professional mythic raid teams dictate casual players’ ability to participate in mythic raid?

Because mythic is designed to be based on twenty people. If you can’t handle recruitment you won’t handle the actual hard bosses.

@Teixir-area-52

We don’t give a crap about race to world first. We aren’t racing. We don’t care. We just want to PLAY THE GAME, at the highest available difficulty, because it’s FUN.

Then recruit people.

@Teixir-area-52

Yet when it comes to mythic raid, we get blocked by number of players.

Then recruit.

@Teixir-area-52

Bring us flex mythic. Let us see and experience the content.

No. If you want to do mythic put some basic effort in.

[Faminex-dragonmaw]

the reasoning has stayed the same forever and its that tuning a flex mythic mode would be an absolute nightmare, which is part of the reason the highest difficulty was normalized to a fixed player count in the first place

spending the time to tune it is just wasted cycles, mythic is fine at 20. Recruit, merge, whatever, its more than possible to gather 20+ people with clear goals set.

[Banaritaz-exodar]

@Zoumz-zuljin

To be clear Emerald Nightmare mythic difficulty is not representative in any form of mythic raiding general difficulty. It wasn’t tuned with the new power curve the game offered with m+ combined with artifact weapons and legendaries (which if you got lucky could bring another 10% dmg).

It showed that if you make those power available you have to tune content harder else it gets stomped and stomped it did. It made the game much more grindy since then for people that just wanted to be able to raid mythic without having to invest so much time outside of it. Mythic raiding usually has a 20-25% clear rate and EN had a 50% clear rate which is closer to some heroic raid tier that have some of the lower clear rates being around 60% clear rate. (the highest go around 80-90%)

If you meant Amyrdrassil (Which for me I guess is the emerald dream raid?) that’s another story and Fyrakk/Tindral were still pretty decent end bosses and are fairly recent which is why I guessed that you might not be talking about those when implying in the past with mechanical difference. Amyrdrassil is definitely comparable to new raids.

@Snozy-pagle

Emerald Dream is considered the easiest most free CE in the history of this game.

This is great information in hindsight.

Let me just go back in time and pick a different raid tier to do go for. Oh.

The difficulty of the content doesn’t really matter to me. We attempted CE once and got it once. I can’t fix whether it was “difficult enough” to count. I barely remember that raid, anyways.

If the guild has failed over and over, got it in there and then failed for several other raids, this may have some merit.

Also, I’m gonna be blunt: You can’t spend the entire thread talking about how INTEGRAL recruitment, organization and raid leadership are to the Mythic experience, and then IMMEDIATELY ignore all of that because because the raid itself was too easy from a mechanical and balance standpoint, lol.

Either that stuff matters, or it doesn’t. You can pick, I don’t care.

[Snozy-pagle]

@Banaritaz-exodar

This is great information in hindsight.

Let me just go back in time and pick a different raid tier to do go for. Oh.

No one is saying you’re bad for getting CE in emerald nightmare. We are just trying to make you realize the difficulty to the current tier is not similar to Emerald nightmare.

@Banaritaz-exodar

Also, I’m gonna be blunt: You can’t spend the entire thread talking about how INTEGRAL recruitment, organization and raid leadership are to the Mythic experience, and then IMMEDIATELY ignore all of that because because the raid itself was too easy from a mechanical and balance standpoint, lol.

That’s not what we are doing.

You said you had experience as a CE raider and when your only CE is emerald nightmare it shows you night not realize what you’re asking for.

None of that applies to the requirements for mythic raiding being twenty people and you needing to recruit. It’s literally the first test.

@Banaritaz-exodar

Either that stuff matters, or it doesn’t. You can pick, I don’t care.

You’re acting like they both contradict each other.

It’s apples to oranges.

The requirements have never changed btw.

[Banaritaz-exodar]

@Snozy-pagle

That’s not what we are doing.

You said you had experience as a CE raider and when your only CE is emerald nightmare it shows you night not realize what you’re asking for.

None of that applies to the requirements for mythic raiding being twenty people and you needing to recruit. It’s literally the first test.

Fair enough! Just seemed like the intent was, “Oh, you got CE then? Doesn’t count then.”

I was simply addressing the bit about, “You’re just mad because you can’t recruit.” by pointing out that my perspective isn’t that at all.

I’ve personally recruited. I’ve put that effort in.

I’ve just felt, throughout this thread, that the recruitment requirements are awful high.

[Snozy-pagle]

@Banaritaz-exodar

I was simply addressing the bit about, “You’re just mad because you can’t recruit.” by pointing out that my perspective isn’t that at all.

I don’t think anyone was saying “you’re mad”. Most of those were thrown at Joda

@Banaritaz-exodar

I’ve personally recruited. I’ve put that effort in.

What have you done to recruit? Like what is your current recruitment spiel?

@Banaritaz-exodar

I’ve just felt, throughout this thread, that the recruitment requirements are awful high.

They really aren’t. I think the disconnect is that you don’t really realize the time and coordination it takes to raid at a ce level especially for the harder bosses.

[Furcasdh-stormrage]

Probably should just make it flex period and design it for a wider audience outside of the very tippy top of the raiding spectrum. It’s good for business at least if more people engage with the content.

[Snozy-pagle]

@Furcasdh-stormrage

Probably should just make it flex period

No.

@Furcasdh-stormrage

and design it for a wider audience outside of the very tippy top of the raiding spectrum.

Again no. It’s not possible without destroying the game mode.

@Furcasdh-stormrage

It’s good for business at least if more people engage with the content.

Destroying the top tier of raiding because some people want to be pretend mythic raiders isn’t good for business.

Stop trying to take the lazy way and actually recruit people.

[Teixir-area-52]

@Lemonshark-dalaran

THEN PUG problem solved thank you for coming.

I am personally facing the opposite problem. We have 34 raiders, 27 of them are hoping to come to mythic, so we are leaving people out. Week after week.

It just feels BAD as a guild to bench capable players simply due to numbers. Then you get into the sweaty guilds who will rotate players in and out for specific bosses because this particular drop would be a 2.3% upgrade for that guy compared to only a 0.7% upgrade here…

And suddenly we aren’t playing a game anymore. We’re just doing math for who’s allowed to participate in the scheduled “entertainment” this evening.

The balancing would probably be awful for flex, but once upon a time, we went from having either 10- or 25-player content ONLY, to having flex raid size. If they balanced it once, for every other difficulty, they can give it another try.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

@Lemonshark-dalaran

where are you getting these numbers from?

Wowprogress.com shows the amount of guilds that clear the raid for heroic and mythic each tier, some of that information got corrupted (same as some M+ seasons on raider io) so that information is not completely available but if you want to have a look there should be a many expansions worth of data.

Funnily as old as it is for a website and as basic it is still used a lot for recruitment.

[Dorflundgren-cenarius]

The big problem here isn’t so much that you CAN’T mythic raid on your schedule, you absolutely CAN. The problem is that your leadership isn’t willing to find 7 more people to play with you and/or aren’t willing to simply merge with another guild in the same situation.

You’re right… there ARE tons of guilds like yours but the thing holding them back is their insular nature. You don’t want to bother making new friends because you’ve been playing with the same friends for years. Some of those friends may also not perform competitively in regards to mechanics/dps/healing output/low survivability syndrome.

Mythic raiding by nature is set up as a darwinian system: you should constantly be recruiting and everyone should constantly be fighting for their raid spot. The progression raid spot is the real reward for raid performance, not gear. Hell, even a healthy mythic guild keeps a roster greater than 20 players and ppl have to sit all the time. The more willing to be cutthroat with raid spots a guild is willing to be, the farther they’ll get. If your guild is protecting a few or a group of bad players because they’re friends or spouses or family, you wont get far. And if you won’t even recruit 7 players to get your foot in the door, you honestly don’t belong in mythic raids.

That being said, ppl are pugging mythic on alts or of their guilds dont mythic raid. They are quite successful for the early bosses. You can use those to either raid or to recruit if you are willing to organize them.

[Lemonshark-dalaran]

no offense but we are talking the top content in the game. so yes people min maxing should not be looked at as a bad thing. if you want a casual experience heroic and normal are available to you. i just dont get this attitude that we need to destroy a key pillar of the game so that you can be more social with some friends. thats not what this tier of content is for.

[Lemonshark-dalaran]

@Zoumz-zuljin

shows the amount of guilds that clear the raid for heroic and mythic each tier

im pretty sure it only shows of people who actually raid. thats why i was curious because 20-25% of the population clearing mythic didnt sound right to me.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

The point is about clear rate so how many people that actually go in and clear it, it would be unfair to use people that do not do the content at all and haven’t cleared the first boss. Clear rates are generally good indicators of the difficulty of the content not really of the quantity.

[Snozy-pagle]

@Teixir-area-52

I am personally facing the opposite problem. We have 34 raiders, 27 of them are hoping to come to mythic, so we are leaving people out. Week after week.

So rotate them like every mythic guild does.

@Teixir-area-52

It just feels BAD as a guild to bench capable players simply due to numbers. Then you get into the sweaty guilds who will rotate players in and out for specific bosses because this particular drop would be a 2.3% upgrade for that guy compared to only a 0.7% upgrade here…

No it doesn’t.

Rotating people is how you keep a bench.

@Teixir-area-52

And suddenly we aren’t playing a game anymore. We’re just doing math for who’s allowed to participate in the scheduled “entertainment” this evening.

Stop being sensitive about it.

@Teixir-area-52

The balancing would probably be awful for flex, but once upon a time, we went from having either 10- or 25-player content ONLY, to having flex raid size. If they balanced it once, for every other difficulty, they can give it another try.

Mythic has never been flex.