Then you create a situation where you have The meta group. Every other class that’s not part of the meta group will excluded from mythic raiding.
Keep in mind that more often than not, we require multiple of the same class for some fights.
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And scaled to 10 players im sure that’s able to be changed without issue. halfing mechanics is way easier logistically than flexible scaling
The arguments for scaling I will admit are the most valid ones levied so far. I still submit flexible scaling is possible with pros outweighing cons if they actually wanted to do it, but could accept stuck 20 is the easy solution for them (Not necessarily the best). However I’ve yet to hear a valid argument that isn’t baseless speculation against removing the lockout.
If it MUST be 20, at least make getting that 20 more viable.
They have. Cross-realm mythic from day one was a MASSIVE boon for people wanting to raid mythic but didn’t want to transfer servers and leave their friends and communities behind and it didn’t damage what mythic raid was, it just made recruitment no longer require spending money on transfers, not to mention making the pool of people to recruit from expand WAY beyond trying to poach people from other guilds on their server.
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So they’re half way there.
Now they just need to remove the lockout for people wanting to raid mythic but not wanting to transfer guilds and leave their friends and communities behind and it won’t damage what mythic raid is, it will just make recruitment no longer require waiting a week to try with new people.
You can already raid with a guild without being in the guild, depending on the way they run things, regardless of the lockout. All the lockout does is prevent you from running the same content with different groups. Imagine what would happen if a bunch of people were saved to all of the bosses in the raid and because of that, if they join another group and kill the bosses, the loot drops are diminished because of how many people were saved, you know like how it does in normal and heroic. That is just one way removing the lockouts can be abused to sabotage other groups, I can come up with a dozen more scenarios of how your suggestion can be abused and used for more harm than good it does.
The thing about weighing the pros and the cons, you have to actually acknowledge the bad things that can and most likely will happen as a result. Relying only on the positive and pure optimism that Humanity never lies cheats or steals that never gets jealous for envious or spiteful is an easy way to ruin something with good intentions.
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Raid even a single boss with a different guild that week = can’t raid any with your guild
Yeah, as in the already built in system to prevent the lack of lockout being abused for more loot.
What? Lol. Who the hell is wasting their time intentionally sabotaging people’s loot drops in such a big group to be noticeable? Like, not even reddit has ever complained about that happening in heroic. The only time someone EVER does a boss they can’t loot is cause they need the next one after it, and every group I’ve ever seen has found that an acceptable price for that player’s expertise in actually killing the current boss. That’s such a bad example to defend yourself with.
If you can come up with a dozen more scenarios, then do it, cause your first one was completely absurd.
If your guild is raiding, it’s a disservice to raid with other people that week on the same difficulty, even in heroic because that means you being locked to bosses can potentially drop the loot pool for everyone else because you were locked to another boss.
Yep, incidentally if you’re in a 15 man group and you’re locked, those 14 other people get to split a 10 man group worth of loot. You’re trolling them.
Try pugging more. People get very disgruntled when they build a team of 20-25 people specifically to get more loot to drop, and they don’t get the loot drops because some of the people that joined were already locked to the bosses without saying so.
Players have also intentionally sabotaged mythic prog groups by taking their lockout and selling it to a CE group, while that is a con of the current lockout system it is an example of the fact that people do indeed do awful things to other people either for personal gain or out of spite.
Again, I’ve pugged a lot, especially in times when my group moves past doing a difficulty or when I have more than one alt I’d want to run through things with. It happens and I’ve seen it first-hand more than once. It happens in big groups and small groups, you apparently can’t grasp what happens when you trim a group down to 10 to kill a boss and you only see one piece of loot drop or when you build a full 30-man pug and only see three items drop. Usually, the people don’t say they were already locked because they didn’t understand being locked could reduce drops and “their valuable expertise” isn’t even a reason because the person who was locked could have also been floor PoV the entire time. Don’t try and twist a narrative to make them a generous hero because now everyone is locked and because of the breakpoints of players to loot drops in flex raids, one person can make it less likely for everyone else to get a piece of usable loot and when a bunch of people are locked choosing to run again for whatever reason (practice, parse, etc) the people with them get shafted.
Anyways, you want a few more examples, here.
Pugs running multiple ‘trials’ in the same week. First group they run with will be normal, second group they run with with get less loot for their group to drop. Intentionally or not, the second group loses. Can already happen in heroic, moving it to Mythic where it requires more effort and is the primary source of Myth-track gear beyond the 1-per-week in the vault hurts the group more.
Pugs, in general, waste time. Say you have a 3 or 4 hour raid night. You get a pug who was planned to be there so ignoring the time searching, you spend the 5-10 minutes making sure everyone’s up to speed, next thirty minutes to an hour the pug consistently wipes the raid. They have no obligation to stay with you and nothing stopping them from joining another group, so they leave. You now wasted a sizeable portion of your raid night to train someone who’s immediately going somewhere else. You can search again but it doesn’t solve the unreliability problem of pugs.
Incentive shifts from “the group’s progress” to “my progress.” You know what happens when the people that prioritize their personal progress over their group’s progress, right? They either get restless with the group’s slow pace, become toxic, or abandon the group entirely, worst case scenario they just go full sociopath. If it were easier to pug, group cohesion deteriorates and it can already be seen in slower AotC guilds having some players above the group’s average going out of their way to pug it sooner instead of achieving it with their group.
Emphasis on degenerate behavior, splits and running multiple characters on the mythic farm bosses, anyone and everyone even remotely competitive would see that as a bad precedent for HoF and other early CE guilds.
Removal of the lockout is a suggestion in trying to attempt to make content not designed to be pugged more accessible to pugs and ultimately leads to frustration, doubly-so for groups that rely on pugs to fill in gaps because it doesn’t change the coordination requirements and that frustration leads to burnout.
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It’s very telling that you don’t even know how the loot works in this game in flex groups while making all these arguments about how flexible groups is bad. 15 people in a group with 1 locked means 14 people contributing loot. That’s 2 items with an 80% chance at a 3rd.
Apparently you didn’t grasp it yourself, mate
Who the hell is gonna run multiple trials with different pug groups? That’s almost as niche as RWF itself. In actual practice this would require the MAJORITY of the players to be in on it, and that would become very apparent really fast if the others were not. This also would not be possible effectively to do in mass because it’s going to be almost entirely established groups filling the 5 spots they are missing, not purely pug formed groups like you often see in heroic.
You know what wastes more time? Someone bailing in the first hour of the raid and being locked with them so now your other 3 hours don’t even matter cause you can’t do it for a whole week now. Everything you said related to ‘wasting time’ is moot in comparison to that.
This is literally what already happens to groups struggling to find a consistent team for the lockout 20 currently required. And it happens just as much in mythic groups right now struggling to clear fast enough having a player bail to join another guild that was looking for a fill that’s further ahead on clears. That’s not a product of lockout or no lockout, that’s a product of people.
Same response as running multiple trials.
Here’s a brilliant question for you: If you’re sitting high and pretty with a CE team already that doesn’t need to flex or fill people: what does it matter to you if the other people get a change to the system to make it accessible to them? You can keep running your 20 man and any problems that DO arise from it have 0 impact on your team. You’re just gatekeeping, or worse, trying to protect your bottom line selling clears.
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You misunderstand what I said. ONE pug, trialing with MULTIPLE guilds. Not one guild running multiple extra raids for trials.
The result is exactly the same except with no lockout, the pug is more likely to leave with no hindrance to them. No matter what when a pug leaves, your time with the pug is wasted and you have to spend more time finding a new one. You can pug with or without the lockout and if you want to make pugging later bosses easier, you’d actually want to get rid of the Great Vault, as that’s the biggest driving force in making it harder to pug mid-raid, since that impacts the weekly guaranteed gear by skipping the farm bosses, even if those farm bosses drop nothing you want, far more than the lockout itself.
Exactly, it’s people. If you don’t realize that your suggesting changes that can push it more towards that side, that’s dismissing that the lockout would have an impact. Guilds poaching players is something that pretty much existed since raids existed, hell, even I got in-game and Discord messages from guilds asking if I was interested in swapping teams.
It’s a matter of game design and philosophies behind game modes. Changing to flex has design and balance issues that simply won’t work with mythic fight design for the past decade. Changing the lockout is a better alternative but it isn’t without flaws that can impact everyone. My stance is “Hey, here’s the tools you need to succeed” and if you say, “No, I don’t want to use those, I want things to change to cater to us!” Then of course, it’s a matter of drawing people away from stagnating when they want to grow or, at the worst, drifting into delusion.
As for selling carries, I’m just a casual player, we haven’t sold any and the last time I did sell carries was back on MoP Garrosh. Also, I’m not gatekeeping anything, I’m actively telling you to TRY. Get recruiters, build your team up with new friends to play with, engage it full-heartedly and if your current group doesn’t permit you to thrive in the way you want to or it refuses to grow as would be required, there’s nothing wrong with looking for a group that does while maintaining friendly ties with the old guard.
Saying “We refuse to recruit or handle the logistics of organizing a raid” is resigning yourself to failure. If you want to take it easy there’s nothing wrong with that but the raid environment for Mythic is not sustainable for engaging it half-heartedly.
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The pugs may be more likely to leave, but the number of pugs available to recruit will increase far greater by comparison. But more importantly, it would allow someone with mythic raiding guild with obligations locked out on loot to also join their other friends to help their prog because they want the prog more than the 20% additional loot chance.
Put those together and suddenly it becomes easier to home grow mythic teams
It would be the same. It would just happen that day instead of next week. Anyone who was going to bail on their current group was going to bail regardless of lockout.
I understand that you are right that as it currently stands this is the best way to be able to mythic raid. But is it such a crime to wish there was a way I could challenge the mythic raid with my existing 15 friends without having to bring strangers in each week until there’s 5 more consistent friends?
I love how you’re masking your inferiority with this dismissive statement as if all mythic raiders are basement dwellers.
Personally - I run a data analytics firm, am finishing my second Masters (MS in AI Business Analytics, on track for distinction), and work as a consultant with travel. (Strawman meet strawman).
I’m able to hit my raid vault and between 4-8 M+ slots, I’m 717, and my total "wow-time is roughly 12 hours?/week.
We raid 2 nights a week and are 4/8. The rest of the guild is a mix of active duty military, full time workers and yes theres a couple NEETs. We still get cutting edge every season with time on the clock.
I’m almost positive they have. The problem is that mythic is very finely tuned for 20 people. Heroic is much easier to adjust values but I would guess, its too hard to create a slider that is consistent with 10 vs 20 vs 25. Most healing spells (Radiance, Dream Breath, etc) is target capped so I can imagine just the healing difficulty is vastly different between 10-20 players. It would be like buffing the target capped heals. Also, I couldn’t imagine how a fight like forgemaster could be balanced with 10 or even 15 players with the pylon timing. I’d say its just too much to do for them.
Heroic is a good capstone achievement and Cutting Edge is an achievement that transcends above just skill but also resilience, endurance (surpassing the “guild-killers”), and logistics. Just a different game altogether.
You can always pug so idk what this fake issue of not having enough people is. I see LFG listings for mythic all the time and they seem to have decent luck filling up.
So… git… good?
Forget raiding 3-4 nights a week, I’ve had trouble since around BFA to try and get and keep just 20 for a single nights raid.
Yup. But there are still a few really degenerate playstyles they like to cater to. On one hand, they say they want to make the game more approachable. They say they’re doing all these things to make the game more approachable. Meanwhile they die on the mythic raid hill in so many ways, really in the name of nothing more than developer ego.
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Well it seems with changing all combat that they can bring back 10man and flex mythic raiding with very little issues.
Honestly, the design ‘reasons’ of it not being accessible for a long while is because someone at Blizzard wanted it that way & I doubt anyone could change my mind over it
As long as raid buffs still exist, and fights on mythic are designed around the expectation players have access to gateways, movement speed increases, knockbacks, grips, aoe cc, and various damage profiles, we won’t be going back to 10 man
A 10 man raid team currently would need.
Mage
Rogue
Dps DK
Monk
Priest
Shaman
Paladin
Warlock
Warrior
Evoker
And oh wait that’s 10 and we didn’t even get to druid, DH, or hunter.
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This is a great troll post, nice.
Unless you’re serious. The first half is pretty troll, the second half seems like you’re taking it seriously.
In which case, oof. Inferiority, lawl.
As for the points about raid comp being so critical for M20, vs flex… I would argue that’s a bad thing.
It goes against the entire philosophy of the game encouraging every class to bring VALUABLE utility.
If you need a DK or an Evoker to progress through Mythic. As in, NEED it, as many posts seem to be implying, then Mythic isn’t a skill or coordination test. It’s a, “How many alts do each of you have ready to raid” test, and that answer is always directly linked with, “How many hours a week do you play the game?”
Gearing alts is pretty easy, but the time needed for multiple, Myth ready characters is not trivial.
If a mechanic is designed to require any singular spell that only 1 class has access to, its bad, lazily designed mechanic.
There’s a reason so many classes have an overlap of their own styles of utility.
Priests, mages, and Hunters have an immune.
Druids, warlcoks, and evokers have movement
Evokers, death knights, and monks have enemy displacement
Mages and shamans both have polymorph
Rogues and hunters both have threat misdirects
Etc
Etc
For every utility.
They all have different styles which do it in different ways that can cover for each other.
Can you imagine if they introduced a fight with the mechanic “A mage has to use flamestrike to break this shield, no other spell will break it”
Everyone would lose their minds, its terrible design. But because the easiest strat for a fight requires DK grip, you all say DK is required and think that’s a good thing for some reason only because RWF said it. If Bliz came out and said “you wont be able to kill this boss unless you have a mage with flamestrike” everyone would say it was terrible design.
I was mostly going over raid buffs. But yes, there are tonnes of mechanics designed around the expactation raids will have a gateway, or savage roar / wind rush totem, or death grip, or knockbacks.
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They are designed to have 1 of the utilities as an option that a few classes can supply in different ways. Very few (if any truly are) are actually only possible with 1 class and only one class.
Warlock gate, evoker personal movement refresh, and druid roar all can achieve the same result in different ways. Its not limited to just one of them