Another factor that’s worth considering when you’re trying to push io (as OP says he’s pretty new) is the affixes. Some specs can handle an affix better than other specs can. Frost does extremely well on Quaking just because of how many instant casts are in its rotation, and with the ability to reposition and cast at the same time, courtesy of Ice Floes, it doesn’t mind this week’s Volcanic either. However it struggles with Sanguine as nearly everything in its arsenal will inevitably slow its targets down except Ice Lance.
But honestly, I’ve managed to clear everything as +18 on Frost and it isn’t even that difficult. Even have a few +19s. I’ve had few runs with a Fire mage and the end damage is pretty close. Frost does better consistent damage throughout, and Fire will have peaks and valleys in its DPS.
The “meta” only shows itself once you’re at like 22+ where every second matters and where team coordination requirements far exceed that of a pug.
Dude I don’t even know how to respond to any of that. Like are you really trying to justify that guys thought process? 1k io with no timed 15s and he chides someone who’s almost 1600 because of their spec.
IO isn’t a perfect system, but the odds of you getting someone that has only been carried seems pretty low. If you’re that concerned about it, IO will show how many 15’s have been timed. The higher that number, the less likely that person has been carried…or so you’d think.
That addon works as well as it can. Most of the time, the person plays at the level that I’d expect based on their IO.
Yea, it’s the best we got for gauging performance. I was more so trying to point out that the arguments for not believing in the IO score are also arguments for not using it at all in the first place. If that’s the case, why even bother trying to PUG with people other than through randomly selecting people? It was just a bad argument that tries to make specialization more important than it really is.
The fire vs frost argument really boils down to burst vs sustained. One is just valued so much more. I just don’t see any way around that.
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Just curious. When you say something like spec doesn’t matter until X key level, and there’s literally a couple of the worlds best players clearing it on some specs. Do you see how flawed that logic is?
Take a look at representation to check viability. Saying it doesn’t matter until +22 when there’s single digit numbers of players on some specs, is just being silly.
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I don’t know if representation is really the best gauge for viability. Community perception plays a big part in the comps that people want, even for low and mid-range keys. There’s just no reason that a skilled frost mage or survival hunter or any other non-meta class is going to brick a key simply for not being the right spec.
Well, there’s a few things at play.
First point is it depends how we define viable. It’s commonly accepted that everything is viable to at least +15. However, is it viable to play if you don’t get invites? Nobody likes spending more time finding a group than playing.
I’d argue that neither of those “definitions” make playing some specs viable at the key levels you were mentioning. Sure, it’s possible, but I think we’d both agree that’s far from what the WoW community’s accepted definition of viable is.
Then on top of that, you’ve got to deal with the fact that the majority of good players follow the meta. This is why when there’s even a small edge, meta specs look even stronger than they are. Because most of the good players are playing those specs.
So anyone going against the meta, is therefore by definition - less likely to be good. Now, obviously there are amazing players playing every spec. But that still holds true, due to the majority of the good players gravitating to meta specs. This is well recognized.
So when we combine all that together, certain specs become non-viable pretty quickly. It might be able to make the numbers work, but not if it’s not getting any invites.
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I don’t really disagree. Not getting invites in BFA or early SL for being frost was the deciding factor to finally go all in on fire. I don’t find the rotation nearly as annoying as it was in BFA so I guess that’s a plus lol.
There’s viable and then there’s the much better option. We lie to ourselves and say fire is only good in MDI style pulls, but that’s really not true I don’t think. Fire is just much better once you pass the point where trash isn’t instantly dying.
Yes, and when you combine that with the fact that the frost and arcane mages who applied - are being stubborn/contrary, and are more likely to be clueless…why invite them?
It’s completely within their power to change specs to a better option, on the same class no less. So they’re not exactly doing all in their power to help the leader time their key, are they? What else are they not going to do…
I pugged every class to 2k in BFA, so i’m not much of a meta follower. But when you’re suddenly playing the group finder game instead of WoW, that’s where I draw the line.
I don’t know if I necessarily agree that they’re being stubborn haha. Fire is not for everyone. I do agree that playing LFG is a deal breaker.
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Just giving an example of how the community views it, more than me myself.
There’s people that just love certain specs. But they’ll still be viewed as being an abnormal/stubborn weirdo by most people.
Yeah, I guess. The community definitely isn’t winning any awards for its attitude. I suspect that this fire vs frost thing wouldn’t be so bad if frost hadn’t launched in such a bad spot in SL. No matter how many buffs they give it, it’s tough to shake that reputation.
If there’s someone that’s off-meta that has shown to clear keys within 1 level (this is necessary for them to actually progress) of the key that’s being applied for, there’s no reason to deny them because of spec. Sure, their ilvl may be compensating a bit for being off meta, but that’s the price they’re paying. It’ll probably be slower progression for them, but they don’t need the help of other people buying into “only x spec can do this content”. Basically, IO score and more ways to determine if someone has a carried IO score should be the deciding factors.
I linked logs showing that people have been able to time keys up to a certain point with off-meta specs. That’s the current limitation. For most people it’s going to come down to gear. For the exceptional, it’s going to come down to which specs are able to burn through the massive trash pulls.
I agree with you.
But that’s not the situation in reality. In reality you get 30 dps applying with similar ilvl and IO. And you can usually pick the exact comp you want.
And in those scenarios (the real world), the fire mage is getting taken over the other mage specs almost all of the time. You’re not picking 1 mage, you’re picking the mage you want most out of the ten who applied. And that is very unlikely to be a frost or arcane one.
So it’s all fine to say they should get invites in certain situations. But they’ll still miss out in most of those cases, due to what they’re competing against.
Supply and demand.
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Yup, that’s the real issue. You probably won’t have much trouble tanking as an off-spec lol.
As Frost, with 1.7k io right now (my mage is just an alt), and my lowest key being a +18, I can say that for the most part I agree with you, but the exception usually comes when they’re looking for a specific covenant for HoA/SD. In this case, as Frost, you not only bring the perks of a mage, but you’re offering role compression by giving the Venthyr perk as well, something another mage spec would very rarely offer. This tips the odds in your favor. However, the inverse usually doesn’t happen - ie you don’t get left out of DoS/Mists because you’re not Night Fae simply because there are so many classes and specs that go for Nightfae.
That actually sounds pretty useful lol. You really do need a venthyr for those.