Fire trees FEEDBACK

Classes Mage
1

Yikes!
Yet another expansion where we’ll rely on the ROP + Kindling interaction and we are forced to build everything else around it. Isn’t that just so great… so great…?!

WHY?!!!

Please, kill ROP already. Or at least nerf it so other talents are viable. 40% is way too much, considering Fire can get Combustion every minute. This interaction alone kills a lot of the interesting new talents, like Tempered Flame.

The capstones - Class side:
Fire Breath is so nerfed (adding a whopping extra 25 sec CD, more than double CD) and the fact that Meteor is bad, just means Shifting Power is that much stronger, and Time Anomaly now competitive. Time Anomaly also being buffed on top of it, and being tied to -1.5 sec off Shimmer + Greater Invisibility, makes Time Anomaly even better compared to Meteor. Strangely enough, the worst capstone talents for Fire are the fire-themed ones.

Please, un-nerf Fire Breath, and make it the capstone AFTER Meteor (or no one will take Meteor). Better yet, make 2 versions of Fire Breath as a choice node: 45 sec CD with the 30 yard range (Darckli’s Dragonfire Diadem), vs. current 20 sec CD with the normal 5 yard range.

The general build - Class side:
Shatter is back, and with it, pretty much all semblance of choice for fire PvP. Now the only way to play is freezing people to be able to do fire dmg to them. Who thought of that? Wasn’t the whole reason Frostfire bolt, the coolest ever spell in the mage arsenal, was removed? Fire will now be forced to take as many Frost Nova + Ice Nova talents as possible.

This wouldn’t bother me as much if it didn’t have so much synergy with Shifting Power. When Shatter Fire came about, Shifting Power didn’t exist. Shifting Power just breaks the whole thing into OP levels and then they just nerf the class everywhere else because of this bad interaction.

Ice Flows has never been and will never be competition for Shimmer.

Buff Ice Flows to 15 sec recharge. The alternative is further nerfing Shimmer, which would probably make more sense given it’s on the same row as Ice Nova and Temporal Loop… but how much more can we nerf Shimmer until it’s no longer usable.

The capstones - Spec side:
Kindling is a locked choice, even if you can no longer have it with Fiery Rush. However, I like that choice node, otherwise Sun Kings Blessing (SKB) would be even more powerful than it already is. SKB being a choice is nice for those who like it, but it way better than Fire Frenzy (FF); so the choice will come down to the tunning of the blockade talents, Fevered Incantation for FF, and Controlled Destruction for SKB.

However, why is Pyromaniac THERE? Garbage, won’t get picked. Also, the fact that you don’t have to sacrifice Kindling will most likely mean that we’ll be building Pyroclasm + SKB. The new synergy of Pyroclasm + SKB with the new Tempered Flames could be a mega-hot option, if only ROP wasn’t so OP and essentially the center of all Fire play.

Again, please, REMOVE RUNE OF POWER. It alone is breaking all possible new interactions from the new fire capstones; ROP makes Tempered Flames dead on arrival. ROP is way OP. Also, re-arrange the Pyroblast talents so they are on the same side. Pyroclasm should be moved to where Pyromaniac is; while Pyromaniac is NOT worth a capstone position.

The general build - Spec side:
Scorch can die in acid and everything associated with it. It takes 4 talent points to make Scorch great, and we pretty much have to take them all because the alternatives don’t synergize with Combustion + ROP (noticing the theme yet?).

I’d much rather spend those exact same 4 points just to make Fireball castable on the move without even the execute bonus… but whatever, I’ll live. I personally might forego this thing altogether and go for the AoE talents but it will cripple my ST dmg for just a tiny AoE buff.

Firestarter choice node with Searing Touch is dumb and has always been dumb. Even more so now that it’s placed in the middle of the other Scorch talents.

Remove Firestarter or move to a choice node with Conflagration instead.

Improved Blazing Barrier - LOL? No comments, just… I can’t even. It’s not even 100% more dmg. So it will do a grand total dmg of a single fireball…

Buff it to 300% at least for that to be viable.

Living Bomb will never get used unless it becomes infinite spread. Flamestrike spamming simply does more dmg, especially now that you can talent it to apply free Living Bombs.

Add a talent next to Living Bomb to make it spread indefinitely. It could make Fire AoE very desirable.

Things I did like about the trees:
Blast Wave vs. Mass Polymorph choice node is an interesting one; though no one will be able to go that side of the tree competitively as long as Shatter exists. It’s not too deep, so it might still get some play, especially if Fire Breath gets un-nerfed.

Adding some self-healing on the class tree is a nice touch.

Alexstrasza’s Fury affecting Phoenix Flames is a nice touch. however, it may become a no-choice talent, as it has way more synergy with Kindling (and therefore ROP) than the alternative.

Phoenix Reborn is nice. I love it. Great synergies too.

Fire Frenzy is fun. Please make it good.

Molten Skyfall is back. Though it has never been competitive, maybe in it’s early position it might be usable.

Incendiary Eruptions taking inspiration from Heroes of the Storm Kael’thas is great. I love it. Will save a point for it even if it’s bad.

Lastly, speaking of Kael’thas… please, bring back the Phoenix Flames orbs as a glyph. They were great flavor.

A glyph to make Slow Fall look like phoenix wings would also be super flavorful. You could even recycle the Chi-Ji wings from MoP.

—So far—

What I wish I could play:

What I’ll be forced to play:

9 Likes
2

no more Rune, please… I beg you, Blizz.

7 Likes
3

I dont know I kinda liked Fire tree with lower Combustion duration.

Well that is if Tempered Flame is all the time. Cause 35% cast time reduction on Pyro its kinda great. Then Time Anomaly have change to proc Combu + 8 ot streack also does. It would spam quite a good amount of RoP too

4

[Sun King’s Blessing] doesn’t place a [Rune of Power], so neither should [Time Anomaly].

Honestly I believe the Fire tree is actually the most solid of the specs, even more than the base Mage tree. There are still a few problems I would love to get addressed though, so I’ll comment on them:

  • Imo points are wasted on granting both [Fire Blast] and [Phoenix Flames] additional charges. [Fire Blast] being a talent is less of a problem because it’s mandatory to progress on the tree, but [Phoenix Flames] being a talent so far down is weird to say the least and the points used to grant them their 3 charges we have today could’ve been used for something more interesting and the charges made baseline.
  • [Flame On] feels like it should just be baseline or at least a 1 point node.
  • [Critical Mass] feels like it should be baseline or at least a 1 point node.
  • [Conflagration] should be deleted from the game. It does virtually 0 damage and is uninterestingly boring.
  • Who in their right mind would ever talent into [Improved Blazing Barrier]?
  • I don’t like the idea of managing a debuff in [Improved Scorch] and also don’t like that the movement speed is only granted in case it crits. [Frenetic Speed] being conditional feels bad.
  • [Pyroclasm] and [Pyromaniac] should probably swap places.
  • [Tempered Flames] looks terrible from just looking at it. We’ll have to know once we have access to sims, but I don’t look forward to be hard casting [Pyroblast] all the time AND giving up on [Combustion] uptime.
  • I don’t really think [Tinder] has a place in PvE.
  • [Wildfire] should get redesigned. Not only is the bonus virtually negligible and only IF they pick [Combustion Duration]. In case someone specs into [Tempered Flames] (shivers), that talent is virtually useless to the caster by increasing critical chance after [Combustion] ends, so only half the duration. The only part that does something is the increased [Ignite] damage.
  • [Molten Skyfall] is put into a really awkward position. But obligatorily having to pick [Flame Patch], we’re encouraged to cast [Flamestrike], which is counter synergistic with [Molten Skyfall].
  • [Meteor] sharing damage on impact is very weak in AoE. Summoning a giant molten flaming rock at your enemies should be a theme for dealing damage in a large area to several enemies, not focusing it into a single one.
  • One can pick [Alextrasza’s Fury] without picking into [Dragon’s Breath]
  • One can pick [Phoenix Reborn] without picking [Phoenix Flames]
2 Likes
5

I do like Pheonix Reborn even without Phoenix flame Just for the burst on ignite. The only thing I dont want from it is the cooldown reduction on Phoenix flame.

Also this one if fine cause you could only proc it from phoenix flame instead of also dragon breath

6

I still find it kinda weird that’s the case. Not a major problem of course, but still not ideal.

7

I agree with a lot of your points. There’s a lot of issues with the fire tree; but I still belief 90% of them will be solved if we simply remove Rune of Power because it funnels our choices in both the class tree and the spec tree.

While I also find it kind of dumb to split Phoenix flames, I think it’s a matter of equivalency. The mirror talent is Flame Patch, which is certainly not worth 3 Phoenix flames. Living Bomb is maybe worth 1 Phoenix flame.

I think this also comes down to equivalency. Wildfire will be the default for group content, Tinder will default to solo.

YEP…

It’s a spec changing talent. Pyroblast becomes your new filler, replacing fireball. It could be very interesting; there are people in the alpha that seem excited for it. However, it will not be viable as long as Rune of Power exists.

8

why do other mages hate RoP so much, I dont like moving when I cast so it seems like a natural fit. If you drop it at a bad time, that kinda a personal responsibility.

1 Like
9

Cause its anti-fun. Its designed bad. Stop what your doing, pray to god RNG doesn’t hate you or lose 90% of dps. A class shouldn’t be designed and balanced around one talent.

6 Likes
10

It has far too much impact and is too vulnerable to rng. It also encourages the devs to design Mages around doing mediocre damage outside of it, and competitive damage during it.

It’s also not always a matter of “personal responsibility” when your Rune usage is disrupted. If you drop the rune and then an rng patch of fire appears under you that forces you out of range of the rune to survive, that’s not a player issue.

Encounter design also runs counter to the style. Raid fights are more mobile now than ever, but Rune wants you to stay in one place to capitalize on it and anything that forces you out of it is detrimental to your performance. The fact is, Rune has too much impact, yet is also counterintuitive to encounter design leaving Mage performance too vulnerable to disruption.

6 Likes
11

That reasoning is a bit flimsy, while I havent dont mythic stuff since like CN earlier in the expansion, even on fights like Kael it was fine, sometimes you gotta move out of the RoP, but most of the time the effect is large enough to play around the mechanics. Not to mention, Mages have been a top tier for a long time, and RoP is always taken. So if the best players in the world can make RoP work in the hardest content in the game, how is it exactly a bad spell?

It might not be user friendly, but I mean if you can wrap your head around how to use RoP, just the IF. You probably also though prismatic crystal was bad.

12

There’s nothing flimsy about it.

  • Fights are more mobile than ever with no sign that this design philosohpy will change any time soon.
  • RNG mechanics can disrupt the immobility required to capitalize on the rune. Even if you can stay within range to keep the buff, you’re losing duration just by moving to avoid the bad.
  • The buff does have too much impact. Mage performance is too crippled without it. Incanter’s Flow is not nearly competitive enough and the devs seem to be balancing Mage performance with Rune in mind. This in turn means anyone who opts not to take Rune is severely diminished in performance.

Not to mention, Mages have been a top tier for a long time, and RoP is always taken.

Mages being top tier or not is irrelevant. The fact that Rune is “always” taken is a reason why it needs to either be nerfed, or outright removed. It is no longer optional. It is required. And any player incapable of capitalizing on Rune effectively, whether due to skill, physical impairment, or RNG interference, will find their performance significantly behind those that can.

So if the best players in the world can make RoP work in the hardest content in the game, how is it exactly a bad spell?

I don’t see the relevance of “the best players in the world” being able to “make it work in the hardest content”. The fact is, regardless of content difficulty, Rune has far too much impact on Mage performance. The spell itself isn’t “bad” per se, but it’s impact on performance is too vast. The difference between having Rune and not having Rune is too big. If Rune is going to stay then either it needs to be nerfed or Incanters Flow needs a significant buff.

It’s a problematic talent IMO. The bottom line is, that if Mages can’t perform competitively without Rune (and they can’t), then Rune needs to be adjusted, or removed.

It might not be user friendly, but I mean if you can wrap your head around how to use RoP, just the IF. You probably also though prismatic crystal was bad.

User friendliness matters. Whether I can personally use it effectively or not is irrelevant. It has far too much impact on performance. I do in fact think Prismatic Crystal was a terrible mechanic and I also think Touch of the Magi is also terrible since it is essentially the evolution of Prismatic Crystal.

But what I think about Prismatic Crystal or Touch of the Magi has no bearing on my opinion of Rune of Power. However, if you want to dismiss my opinion on one thing due to my opinion on something entirely unrelated, you are of course free to do so.

3 Likes
13

There is a userfriendly talent available though, risk and reward arent problematic, you should get rewarded for using your cd’s skillfully, no need to dumb down the class anymore than it already is.

14

The “user friendly” talent is significantly behind. So unless it gets a major buff, it may as well not exist. Just like Arcane Familiar, Supernova, and Nether Tempest. The “reward” is too great, the “risk” is too punitive, and the alternative is inadequate.

1 Like
15

lol, no. The biggest issue with ROP is how necessary it is. It’s way too strong to the point that there’s no choice but to pick it.

It’s ok if you like it, but it shouldn’t be forced on the rest of us.

Nerf it to 10%, and also nerf IF to 0-10% so we are not forced to pick either. It’s a talent tree; we should be able to pick what we want. Not have a singular talent that is more powerful than all other 50 talents in the tree.

That thing shoehorns design and removes all choice… you can’t pick half the talents in the spec tree simply because they don’t synergize with ROP.

3 Likes
16

what would you replace it with a fire and forget dps increase that takes no thought or planning to use effectively? Being a mage is all about foresight and knowledge, I think RoP and prismatic crystal played very well into that. And if rp is your thing, it fits the class fantasy very well. Not every class mechanic has to hold your hand.

17

i would replace it with literally anything… even a 2% leech talent. ROP is too restrictive because it is simply too overpowered.

Exactly, and ROP removes all choice on the mage side. You don’t have to plan whether a Pyro build, or a Combustion build could be better for a fight, or whatever… all you do is: “Does it synergize with ROP? Ok, must be picked.”

3 Likes
18

What build doesnt synergize with doing more damage for 12 seconds? There isnt a mage playstyle that requires moving around spastically.

19

any build that has consistent dmg, instead of stacking CD’s. ROP is only that good because you get to use it during your burst.

Heck, if ROP said “cannot benefit from the effect during Combustion, Icy Veins, or Arcane Surge” it would also be less mandatory and less problematic.

The problem is less the moving, and more the limited dmg window. Doing god dmg, to then pitiful dmg does not appeal to everyone; yet, it is the only way to play mage. Its biggest issue, however, is the overpowered tunning because it removes all choice. The movement issue adds another layer of annoyance, but it is secondary.

1 Like
20

isnt that what IF does though? Consistent damage increases throughout your rotation. If you are some kinda parse addict, sure there is no other option, but most people arent rank 1 parsers lol. Just dont use it.