Fire Mage post rework

We’ve had a few weeks to settle into the newly ‘reworked’ Fire mage; the meta is forming, sims are being refined, playstyles becoming apparent. This feels like an appropriate time to touch back on a few of the concerns that became apparent during PTR, and have rightfully proven to remain an issue now; as well as bringing up a few points of concern in the future.

Class Tree:

  • Lackluster talents still lead to very defined pathing, with little variation. Throughput nodes compete versus utility and defensives, which is no competition: throughput always wins.
  • Temporal Warp continues to plague the central node, forcing us into being tuned around a ~5 minute cooldown (reduced by SP).
  • Time Anomaly remains a fairly weak, unpredictable and inconsistent choice with TW.
  • Shifting power becomes increasingly awkward, leading to unintuitive optimizations.
  • ‘Dead talents’ like the Improved Frost Nova, the Mirror Image choice node, and Rigid Ice.

Fire Tree:

  • From The Ashes is, from a playstyle perspective, an even worse talent than before. It’s more logical than trying to sit on full charges of a spell, but the fact that PF isn’t guaranteed to crit makes it awkward in practice. It having a poor SP coeff makes it undesirable to press, and the fall from grace Mastery/Ignite cleave has experienced make this a very not great talent.
  • Critical Mass and Flame On: Both of these are very identifiable Fire talents. They are two point nodes. The relative strength of a two point node versus the slew of one point nodes means we are frequently dropping one, or even both points, in these talents. The current tier set and playing Alexstraza’s Fury compound this, because we are casting very few fireballs, we don’t need as much critical strike chance for bad luck protection in filler.
  • Living Bomb - woefully undertuned, my heart skip a beat when I saw the pvp modifier of 300%. Because that’s what this talent needs to exist. By extension Convection is also very weak
  • Firefall - The opposite issue exists. This talent currently procs off both Fireball AND Pyroblast. With the sheer number of pyros we’re getting off, we drop meteors like candy. This makes this talent extremely strong, so strong in fact that for a single target build we are dumping two points into Living Bomb and Convection, not pressing living bomb a single time, just to get to firefall.
    • If Living Bomb remains so lackluster, then its positioning should be adjusted. Move Conflagration to LB’s position, shift LB and Convection down to the right. Put firefall as a natural progression of meteor. So the talent would flow Meteor > Firefall > Deep Impact for the bottom right instead of Conflag > Meteor > DI.
  • Deep Impact is deeply unimpressive, and a very boring capstone.
  • Hyperthermia is still very RNG and goes against the very scripted methodical nature fire enjoys.

Talents aside, there are some playstyle concerns. There has been a massive influx of players to the Mage Discord experiencing various issues with targeting. This stems from the fact that Flamestrike is a reticle cast. Fuel the Fire is an excellent talent, I love it, it makes FS fun to play. It also makes FS a nightmare, because we are now casting north of 400 reticle casts throughout a dungeon between FS and meteor. For most players, freedom of mouse movement is important- it’s how we target, utilize mouse over spells like kick or spellsteal, decurse, and even for movement. When we are spending 70% of our time trying to keep our cursor centered on a pack, it is not fun, it is not a skill cap, it is just tedious. In previous iterations is was tolerable because the sheer volume of casts was lower. Reticle casts should be reserved for infrequent casts, like meteor, not rotational binds like FS.

Continuing the topic of FS: UI not interacting in any form with FS makes it a dead on arrival talent for a large percentage of your player base. Ignite cleave is dead, the rework dug that grave. The target caps to FS were needed, and healthy. With these caps implemented, there should be no reason UI can’t be a valid choice to interact with FS for a more defined burst window that organized teams can coordinate. That and UI is just pitifully undertuned. Remove the CDR effect, buff it to 100% damage, that’ll put it inline with SKB and provide a meaningful alternate damage profile. And when you’re looking at the tuning of fire, please. PLEASE. Avoid aura nerfing whenever feasible. SKB is the over performer, and UI gets punished. You baked pyroclasm into SKB, use that as your tuning knob.

The other major concern for fire is the lack of default User Interface support. With pyroclasm dead and gone, an excellent QOL option would be to use the previous pyroclasm texture alert for the Fury of the Sun King buff proc. Get 8 stacks, get the texture signaling you can activate SKB. Being reliant on WAs for core functionality creates artificial barriers to entry to the spec, and is bad design.

There are also some concerns to be said for the future, namely the loss of the T30 tier set. It is currently making Fire very fluid, we have an influx of resources in the form of PF that allow us to aggressively spend and convert during filler, buying us more freedom of movement and less hard casts. It’s very fun, it’s very in keeping with what people love from fire- because hardcasting is boring and instants are fun. And numerically, it’s just insane. When this goes, there is going to be a very large PF shaped gap in our toolkit.

Also, pls give back fire orbs from legion :frowning:

8 Likes

And just to add on one other Flamestrike oriented issue:
Flamestrike does not have travel time, nor a grace period like scorch. What this means in practice is that during a Flamestrike hardcast, if you have a Heating up prior, converting it to a HS mid cast with a fire blast would result in a munch.
For example with fireball or scorch:
Have a HU > Fireball + Fire blast > FS > FS
Have a HU > Scorch + Fire blast > FS> FS
Where with Flamestrike:
Have a HU > Flamestrike + Fire blast > FS + a munched HU.
So you are forced to wait the tiny period between the cast finishing and being able to cast a FS vices being able to spell que it like we are used to.

This is very counterintuitive for experienced fire players as it goes directly against the rest of our kit, and often means making the choice to drop FTB or munch a HU when activating a SKB.

Sunkings blessing should be removed and Unleashed Inferno should be buffed to take its place. It’s always been a degenerate play style that feels wrong.

No UI functionality for it + Hardcasting an ability when fire is about chain gunning out spells constantly

It completely throws off the rhythm of the spec and I think it should be dumpstered like Rune of Power.

1 Like

All ground target reticule effects need to be [@target] castable to prevent fatigue of the skills.

3 Likes

Negative ghostrider.

Yeah this nails everything. Not sure if it’s just me or my keybinds (using a side mouse button for FS) or what but the FS targeting has been driving me up the wall. Feels like I keep dropping my main target mid-Combust (or it dies) using the @cursor macro and I wind up up frantically tab targeting and losing my rhythm. The proc munching issue also just goes right up against my muscle memory. Being able to @target FS would be HUGE for an idiot like me.

I’m gonna be honest, if I didn’t know fire had a rework I would have never guessed. The talent tree is still terrible and flamestrike should be removed from the tree and made baseline and always contribute to hot streak.
I really think they need to build to something because it feels so… weak. Just hit 4 buttons and hope it’s doing enough. Would be nice if there was a big frostfire bolt payoff which consumed ignite and did a mega crit and gave you a damage buff for a bit I don’t know.

2 out of our 3 capstone talents are completely useless.

SKB is the only valid option for PVE, UI is only useful for PVP
Deep impact is never taken
Hyperthermia is also never taken

when only 1/3 (or 1/4 if you count UI as well) of capstone talents are used… the talent design doesnt seem like a huge success to me

Hyperthermia should be re designed, the idea just doesn’t work. Even if they were to make the buff apply to like your next 6 pyroblasts/fs, so there is no longer a window, but rather it’s just a buff, there are still problems. This talent likely needs a complete re design.

Add flamestrike to kindling, but only 1 crit can proc it, so you don’t just get 6 seconds on cdr because you used fs in a pack, this will not kill ignite, but will make flamestrike better for aoe, which it’s supposed to be… Ignite being better on up to 5/6 targets is ridiculous, ignite is for cleave. Not aoe.

Better blizz ui for legacy of the sun king. I really like this talent, but the fact that you need a weak aura to track the buff is objectively bad design. Or maybe they should just make legacy proc on a insta cast pyro so basically now tracking stacks is nice, but not an absolute necessity. Although this would remove some of the gameplay variation from this talent.

That’s about it for me, not really much else to add.

Oh and yea, make flamestrike cast on target, fs being a reticle cats is kinda ridiculous considering how many you cast. Similar problem with earthquake for elemental shaman.

And yea, i am fine with removing the cdr on unleashed inferno. I personally really like the cdr from kindling/pseudo cdr from legacy, playstile a lot, but for people that want a burstier profile unleashed inferno would provide it. And add flamestrike to unleashed, like how is this not a thing?

Another big issue with fire mage is secondary stat scaling.

Yeah there are still quite a few misses in the tree. Other than the obvious UI being undertuned, you’ve got:

Deep Impact: why does the capstone in the de facto AoE side of the tree result in a considerably worse AoE spell? Kill the split damage component at the very least. Even then it could use a numbers buff.

Hyperthermia: truly just needs an overhaul/replacement; the RNG component is frustrating and it just feels duplicative as a concept. If it needs to stay, I’d like to see it as an active ability with a kiss/curse mechanic (e.g., after it fades, do X% less Fire damage, decaying over Y seconds). Then it at least has a niche as something to press towards the end of a pack, or before a mechanic/intermission, or trying to burst down a low health player.

Living Bomb: just make this thing do one, somewhat impactful explosion. It’s already clear that spread mechanics are a massive pain to tune; just kill that component and make it worth pressing. If you want to make it more dynamic, have it scale with the ignite bank on the target or something.

Pyromaniac: this one just bothers me. There’s no realistic way to properly react to this proc mid Combust without accidentally munching a resource and rendering it useless. Just have it double-cast (secondary cast doesn’t generate a heating up) or refresh a Fireblast charge or something.