I forgot to add to my feedback;
For Fury, is Slam now meant to be a new single target filler ability (they removed Slam’s rage cost)?
If so, can we please not have it, we already have enough buttons at it is, we don’t need another filler.
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Can you guys make ravage give parry again for prot like used to be.
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It does not, since you can path there from Reinforced Plates. That being locked behind a potential dead point in Shockwave is equitable with a Concussive/Reverb.
Concussive is also situationally useful, there just aren’t a ton of situations for it.
It’s not Fury’s rage gen you’re feeling so much as the loss of increased enrage duration from Tenderize. Combined with the general low gear level on beta makes it feel a lot slower than it actually is - I’d recommend fine tuning your gear using the vendors in Stormwind/Orgrimmar.
It works with Bloodthirst because, like Mortal Strike, it procs a wide variety of effects, giving Unhinged a lot more flavor and synergy beyond raw damage. The two don’t need to be exactly equitable, because the specs work very different to one another.
This only works because Cruel Strikes is easy to drop in Roar builds, and Spear builds never have to drop Wild Strikes because Piercing Challenge is terrible. The real solution is to rebalance the relative value of all four talents, to address the insanely overbudgeted ones (Wild Strikes/Armored to the Teeth).
It’s a superfluous “leveling improvement” - it doesn’t generate rage, and you’re pretty well GCD locked so you should almost never feel compelled to use Slam in a max level setting anyway.
If you really want to bind it just on the off chance every other ability is on cooldown, it would replace Whirlwind on your single target Slayer bar, so the total number of keybinds is unchanged. In a Thane or multitarget Slayer build, Whirlwind/Thunder Clap are always better regardless.
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- Overpower and Dreadnaught weren’t rebalanced after the Battlelord change, and those talents don’t currently (but probably should) buff Dreadnaught, which is why it feels so small in multitarget.
- Sudden Death’s increase is working; it’s a 30% multiplier which takes the proc rate from 1.7 → 2.21 (~2.5 → 3.3 with a good amount of haste). While this is 30% more, its a very small difference in absolute terms, which is why it’s so hard to notice (for the record, Fury’s Season 1 DF tier took Sudden Death from 1.7 → 4.25 before haste, which was far more noticeable).
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- This is absolutely a problem and buffing the proc rate would help, though the bigger problem is that Marked for Execution and Sudden Death require one another but are independent procs in the first place. The far better solution is just tying them intrinsically together, rather than hoping they both happen at the right time.
- Reap will probably get the same Cleave treatment that Colossal Might got this build.
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For Arms Warrior: What I would like to say is about the rage generation: the rage generation seems a little low in TWW. Sometimes I run out of rage, sometimes I have enough. I feel the difference in the rotation between DF and TWW. It’s a really big difference. So a little more rage generation/gain for the arms/fury warrior would greatly appreciated. The nerf is really strong for rage generation between DF and TWW.
Prot Warrior Feedback
Class Tree
The current changes to the class tree is a big step in the right direction. Shockwave is NOT a capstone ability and thank you for putting rumbling earth right under it. However, there are a couple of pain points that I think could easily be swapped out.
First and foremost and if this is done…it’s damn near perfect: Wild Strikes and Cruel Strikes should be swapped. Endurance Training and Armored to the Teeth should be swapped. The reason being is now matter where you put it: Champion’s Spear is a pvp ability. Chaining enemies to a certain spot is niche at best in pve and the talent that increases HP and reduces CC duration on you should go above the pvp ability. It makes complete sense. Wild strikes is good forever is is pretty much mandatory for all warriors. Having to choose between Cruel Strikes and Armored to the teeth to get to Avatar is a good decision to make: do you want more flat damage or do you want to invest more in your crits?
Protection Spec Tree
As one of the few people who takes Tough as Nails cause i think it’s rly cool and very effective for aggro…I’m always staring at the neighbor of that talent…Bloodborne. We’ve gone through now 2 seasons (DF 3 and 4) with one of the best tier sets I’ve ever seen warriors have where we are dealing tons and tons of bleed damage and we CAN’T take the 1 throughput talent for bleed damage because it’s a gateway talent that requires 2 points and DOESN’T connect to a capstone. I would absolutely make Bloodborne the Dragonflight Season 3 tier set effect. It’s a boring talent that you can’t take but absolutely would if it was the tier bonus.
Mountain Thane
Playing Mountain Thane is good fun not only to press the buttons but to see the lightning. 3/4 of the choice nodes are fairly compelling and I rly like that I don’t HAVE to use rend and thunderous roar for it to feel good. It compliments the warrior and prot spec tree really well.
HOWEVER, the biggest pain point of Thane is the very center choice node between Storm Bolts and Storm Shield. Storm Shield is decent enough and rly gives the warrior that ability to do what really good warriors do: Make a difference when you’re paying attention. It could be game changing to throw a big magic shield on your fellow tank in a raid or a healer or vulnerable dps in a M+. It’s niche-ish but nice. Storm Bolts should be on the warrior class tree directly under Storm Bolt. In my opinion, you should look at where Storm Bolt and Shockwave are right now and either want the short blanket stun with a shorter CD OR the much longer stun that you can’t rly control the other two targets.
Last thing about Mountain Thane is the Keep your Feet and Steadfast as the Peaks choice node. Steadfast might just NOT be my cup of tea. It’s hard for me to look at the Colossus tree and see the rly great improvement to Shockwave with the CDR and knock up…and not see a “Keep your Feet ON the ground” that makes maybe every 3 or 4 Thunder Clap or Thunder Blast cause a knock up or little knock back as well.
Colossus
Colossus is the tree you play when you like how warrior is right now and just want a new button to press. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The increased size is minute but really flavorful and as a tauren I’m lovin’ it. However, it falls into the prot Warrior curse of: It will feel good once there’s access to enough Haste.
Additionally, over time, the warrior class tree and other bits and bobs of warrior specs have invested into the “your critical strikes do more damage or some other effect.” The problem with this is the same problem a crit dependent dps has: There’s simply not access to enough crit for the majority of the expansion. This is especially relevant for a warrior tank that typically can’t just invest into crit to maximize the use of those handful of talent points they’ve invested in those crit based talents. Now, Fight Through the Flames really puts a good taste in my mouth about it…that’s a free magic damage reduction equal to 10% versatility making warrior significantly less dependent on as much vers in some situations. However, Colossus has 2 additional nodes where you HAVE to crit to use those talents.
IF the crit dependency is to stay for Colossus and the warrior class tree…I would change the Arterial Bleed hero talent in Colossus to cause bleeds to deal additional crit damage. Additionally, Tide of Battle needs to also be taken off the “deal X more damage based on colossal might stacks.” You should NOT have 3 sources of damage; bleeds, revenge AND demolish, deal increased damage based stacks of a buff that you are trying to spend as fast as possible.
Last tid bit for Colossus: Please give Demolish a unique animation for Prot and Arms. IT looks great for Arms…but kind of silly for prot right now.
Conclusion
Though I subscribe to the thought that warrior could definitely use one of those fancy reworks other classes are getting…I understand it takes a lot of work and is a slippery slope.
The class tree needs those changes I listed above and it will be top notch. Bloodborne needs to be made interesting and possible to spec into. Colossus tree should not double down on the “crit strikes do X.” Mountain Thane should get rid of “Storm Bolts,” send it to the class tree…and make the choice node with “Keep your feet on the ground” compete with the Shockwave knockup in Colossus.
You are massively undervaluing Armored to the Teeth. It’s worth anywhere from 5-10% damage per point (varies a little with the state of gearing, since Armor doesn’t inflate as much as other stats). That’s up to double the value of the Two-Handed/Dual Wield Spec node.
There is absolutely no way you ever choose not to take Armored to the Teeth. Wild Strikes is similarly impossible to skip for Arms, though slightly less valuable to Fury. The odd talent out is Cruel Strikes, as even with a full Execute investment, it is not nearly as strong as the other two. A simple rearrangement just shifts the problem around, when really the whole row of talents needs to be rebalanced.
They have PvE applications, but the talents are more meant to help keep Mountain Thane competitive with Slayer in PvP, which is generally fine - Thane already has very strong defensive talents in Steadfast / Ground.
The knock up on Colossus also isn’t all that useful in PvE, unless you’re routinely hitting Stun DR, which really shouldn’t be happening all that often.
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Same here for arms. I feel the difference in the rotation between DF and TWW. Not so much fun like before. The nerf is really strong for rage generation. I hope they will up the rage generation/gain to get more rage for arms and fury because for now it’s pretty low.
Fury wasn’t really changed outside of the insignificant loss of Furious Blows. Arms rage economy actually was nerfed, and for good reason - it was out of control in Dragonflight to the point where the common sentiment was that the rage bar was “cosmetic.”
The new rage economy is much healthier overall, and is still basically GCD locked - you really shouldn’t be rage starving outside of Execute as either Slayer or Colossus. In fact, you should have slightly positive rage generation outside of rare Enduring Blow proc streaks (if you get 5x in a row, yeah you’re probably going to dip, but that’s very rare). This allows you to weave in Ignore Pain every once in awhile, though you definitely won’t be using it on cooldown!
- Execute is still a problem that I’ve sent in repeated feedback about. The recent Critical Thinking buff helped, but isn’t quite enough.
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I disagree. I want to it be in a position that will be much more universally used by warriors. Which, in this case, is above Avatar and put Cruel Strikes across from it to make the choice easy.
Wild Strikes over Thunderous Roar makes it equally as tempting and widely used. Mostly the point it to take it away from the gateway of Champion’s Spear.
“Shouldn’t” and “Actually Do” in this case are galaxies apart. Perhaps certainly in an organized and/or coordinated group in which players are careful of DR’S or the comp of the group isn’t very stun heavy group this is not nearly as relevant. However, even then, having a blanket, uncapped, NON-DR CC is invaluable…especially in the hands of an experienced warrior.
I should have also prefaced my posting with more PVE ramifications in mind as I could care less about PVP.
I don’t care what position it’s in; Armored is so obscenely powerful that you are never, ever skipping two points in it, no matter where it is. Disagree however much you like, but that is an absolute.
A lot of people have suggested going back to the Dragonflight pathing, but the only reason that works is because Roar builds are ok dropping Cruel Strikes and Spear builds don’t need to drop Wild Strikes because Piercing Challenge is completely awful anyway.
The point being that moving the talents doesn’t fix the problem. They desperately need to be rebalanced.
I didn’t say it wasn’t still potentially useful, only that it’s not regularly as useful as its competitor. You don’t really need to be that careful to avoid DR in PvE especially in AoE, you just don’t need the entire group to throw them all out simultaneously. Even an uncoordinated pug group shouldn’t be doing that very often.
The greater overall point though was that the talents exist more to create better PvP parity between Slayer and Mountain Thane (whether you personally care about that or not, it is still a design concern), and getting rid of them just because you personally don’t care about it would be detrimental to that notion.
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I agree with this. But the rage generation/gain for arms is to low for now. A little up for more rage generation/gain for the arms would greatly appreciated. No need to get a big buff, just need a little something more.
Very low race generation. Sometimes it’s difficult to get enough rage for some seconds (2-3). Rage bar is far to be half full much time.
I tested this on a new character with low gears so I don’t know if it’s why my rage is so low. I need to test it with my main but I can’t copy it on the beta for now.
I can’t say what you’re experiencing without seeing it (unless you want to log it), but your rage should look something like this in single target outside of Execute.
It certainly dips at points, but it should very rarely, if ever be completely rage starved, much less for 2-3s. If you feel like it’s a gear problem, you can visit the gear vendors in Stormwind/Orgrimmar to pick up higher leveled gear, enchants, and consumables.
In multitarget, Storm of Swords should keep you practically rage capped at all times.
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"* The tree also doesn’t address any of our lack of group utility concerns
- I really like the idea mentioned above of giving us some kind of mob displacement ability
- Maybe warriors can lean into interrupts more also? Two charges of pummel? AoE interrupt?
- Rallying Cry needs to be more powerful when not in a raid group "
Personally I feel like this is where the issues lie the most. Most damaging numbers, rage generation and talents are all adjustable easily with numbers tuning. Warrior has just over the years fallen behind dramatically in group utility compared to every other multi-role class. There’s very little reason to pick warriors over any other tank, or dps for that matter since most dps can usually provide either more cc, group defensives, etc etc. Even DKs have the same st/AOE stops warriors do in number, a group defensive, on top of having a Brez + Grips and a ranged kick.
Not to mention paladins are leaps and bounds beyond this. There’s plenty of warrior/fighter themed abilties they’ve tossed in various blizzard games that could be placed into choice nodes on warriors general tree to give warriors more interesting choices and reasons for groups to take them without breaking the class fantasy, as stated in my first post on this thread.
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big agree with this
REALLY big agree with this. It sucks playing classic and seeing variety in attack animations between races, then coming back to retail and seeing every race + other classes all use the same stuff. When what should be cool new abilities just use existing animations it ends up feeling a little lame.
Some dude earlier said we are gcd locked still?
I like it low bro.
“Too low” is a matter of opinion. I’d rather not spam buttons mindlessly.
I’d like to offer some feedback for Arms and Prot. I can’t speak to Fury, because since that spec is so incredibly fast-paced and GCD locked, I just can’t get into it, it physically hurts my hands.
Arms:
I will echo what a lot of people have brought up in this thread: Martial Prowess still feels bad to me. Undoubtedly it’s better that it stacks up to 2 times on default, but I still feel that it is so clunky to me, and irritating, that I can’t just press my abilities without making sure I line up Overpower first. It’s frustrating to keep track of the buff being up, it adds cognitive load, and it makes Mortal Strike and Cleave feel weak as abilities, because unless you line up Overpower first, their damage sucks.
Also, while maybe not as bad as fury, this spec still feels incredibly GCD locked. There is never a second to spare because there’s ALWAYS something to rush to press, which is made worse by Exhilarating Blows and Tactician, resetting the CDs of your abilities. These talents are not needed to me, design-wise, and I wish they were just removed to give the rotation a chance to breathe. At MINIMUM, I wish they were easily avoidable or have alternative, competitive options.
Protection:
Similar feedback to arms. I like the core of the spec, shield slam feels good to press, revenge is fine as a spender, keeping up shield block and plopping down thunder claps feel good. But again, shield slam resets WAYYY too often to the point where I feel like I can’t just do my rotation for 5 seconds without it resetting all the time. It feels oppressive and it’s cognitively stressful. I also feel like I am generating too much rage and that Ignore Pain is literally just there as a constant rage dump. Because of the need to dump your rage constantly, the spec feels overly fast-paced and RSI-inducing.
Other than that, I still like the spec, ESPECIALLY its interactions with Mountain Thane. Very satisfying.
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It is a matter of opinion, as is your preference, but consider that every single time Blizzard has tried to do a “slow” rotation that can’t press buttons due to being arbitrarily devoid of resources, it has been extremely poorly received. Coincidentally, every single patch after has incrementally crept Arms back up.
It doesn’t need to be as fast as Fury, nor should it be, but a significant portion of the playerbase has been very vocal that they do not like being resource starved and unable to fill the rotation.
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I think one person has mentioned this and it was in reference to using Cleave more often than Overpower, resulting in them never actually reached two stacks (which is fine, it’s not an expectation in the first place), which is not quite the same as your complaint.
As for Mortal Strike; you don’t need to track Martial Prowess and you certainly shouldn’t be waiting for it before using Mortal Strike. Overpower naturally fits into the rotation and Mortal Strike should be used practically on cooldown regardless of whether or not the buff is up.
Exhilarating Blows has no bearing, since you would just press Slam instead of Mortal Strike again. Tactician does a little bit, since you would probably rage starve without those periodic free Overpowers.
If you want the rotation to be slower, talent into Test of Might instead of In for the Kill, and avoid stacking haste - that’s what scales the APM.
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