Feedback: Warlocks

I feel like demo could do with a choice node on implosion or an optional branch close by. Make implosion a passive that when our imps energy expires they kamikaze themselves in there.

This would do a couple of things. It would leave implosion play intact, and it would be the skill expression play. But for people who don’t want to implosion their imps this gives them a bit of an out, and it gives another option for easier play. Obviously the dmg coefficient would have to be lowered for the passive play but it gives options because I to do not like sacrificing my imps.

1 Like

I really just want drain life back… if feels undertuned to useless now

2 Likes

Demonology warlocks summon demons. I kill them off for power.

I’ve no interest in weak, pointless pets that can’t even justify their own existence. Darkglare was never cool.

9 Likes

I think that he Doom change was a major step in the wrong direction. Sure, the old version did mean that sometimes you had to snipe 5 low hp mobs as a pack was dying. But I have been playing strictly demo and strictly beta since it launced. It was a ton of fun.

Having the option to snipe mobs when it’s not tied to a super important proc like demonic core was sweet. It made warlock feel very fresh in a way that the “new” doom will never do. The season 3/4 set bonus was neat i guess. But is it really so good that it aught to be core?

I don’t think so.

Gonna name drop Kalamazi because I don’t actually know of a single instance where he has gotten something like this wrong, but he seems to be in the same camp, and I know he’s been playing a ton of beta too.

Just my thoughts. If you didn’t play with the previous version, I don’t think you’re gonna be able to appreciate how awesome it felt. Even if it did bad damage, i’d still take the previous version.

6 Likes

Say it again for the people in the back

Exactly. I am destruction. I don’t rely on my pet to do damage for me. Sacrifice the demon to make me stronger. I don’t need it unlike those weak demo locks that have to spawn a bunch of minions to do everything for them.

5 Likes

Few quick notes:

  1. Darkglare. Just remove the pet. It does zero dmg and probably the weakest cd pet across all warlock specs. Bake the effects elsewhere. Besides, we have plenty of button bloat how it is.
  2. Doom. Thematically, the idea is great. Causing the target to continuously downfall into demise is great. However, its implementation is off. I do think it being passive is great, however, i think the biggest issue is the wait time from its start to its end. Why not change it so doom dmg ramps up, and every time it does dmg it has a higher change to spread to other nearby targets?
  3. Doomguard: the best part of doom. Make it meaningful, significant. Right now its absolutely undertuned. Also perhaps make it so whenever doomguard casts it spell, it makes doom explode. That would be meaningful.

I agree with your post… it is too bad that the entire PTR is playtesting against static and predictable mobs or targetdummies… there is no need to try to recover from stuns, gap closers, polymorph, fear, or any other normal PVP activity which completely changes the nerfs and buffs. There remains Global Cool Downs linked to everything while other classes have few to no globals, almost unlimited CC breakers (Rogues, DH, Warriors, mages), and few classes have the “strong vs class X, Y, Z; weak versus class A, B, C” builds that made pvp what is was, but not now what it is. Warlock remains awesome and about the only class that reveices no nerfs and buffs from season to season except when Warlock is doing very well, then they nerf it to not balance the game, not to punish the players, but to elevate the favorite classes of the expac so hack mods are easier to develop. Overall, i am glad Warlock is in a good place but we all know that it won’t last… There are highly vindictive people out there and they are not all players.

Having had the chance to test the new talent arrangement of Destruction, the spec is in a very good place. However, I would like to make a few suggestions, one of which has been echoed above (from the perspective of a more Mythic+ player):

1.) I absolutely love Dimensional Rift (DR) and am overjoyed it is here to stay. At the moment, though, it feels considerably undertuned. Currently in DF (with the four set) Immolate has a chance to refresh a charge of DR, which occurs often when more than one target is dotted with Immolate. In the beta the refresh condition is tied to casts of Incinerate, which, in the majority of beta Destruction builds I have tried, is (comparatively speaking) infrequently used, thereby greatly lowering the probability of a DR charge refresh. The easy solution to this problem is simply to let Immolate instead have a chance to reset a DR charge. This would also sync very well with Unstable Rifts, since, of course, the more rifts one has, the higher the AoE damage. As has been noted above, Dimension Ripper is either bugged or has a freakishly low proc rate, as it has not activated for me even once. Immolate should replace Incinerate here in the capacity of refreshing a DR charge.

2.) I personally believe it is both a tragedy and a mistake not to reimplement Flame Rift into the talent tree. It is very iconic for Destruction and quite powerful. It should be baseline to Dimension Rift itself, albeit with a lower occurrence rate compared to the other three types of rift (as it works now and as it did in Legion). I do not see any reason why it should not carry over into TTW and beyond. Another strategy for its reimplementation could be making Dimension Ripper baseline to the Dimensional Rift talent itself and replacing it with Flame Rift as a capstone. I was disappointed to see it added to the tree and then removed again, seemingly without justification.

3.) Avatar of Destruction is a superb talent that adds a lot of power and flavour to the spec. It seems more geared to single target, though it is certainly useful in AoE (helping to generate Soul Shards for more Rain of Fire casts). In order to further diversify and expand Destruction’s AoE toolkit, however, I would really like to see it put on a choice node that summons a different demon (or the same one, with perhaps a different color scheme) that casts Cataclysms on its primary target. Such a choice node would mirror that seen in the Demonology tree between Mark of Shatug and Mark of F’harg, the fundamental distinction between which is clearly one of ST vs AoE, respectively. Cataclysm as a talent, I fear, will not see much use (outside of ST, since we are forced to choose it to get to Scalding Flames and Channel Demonfire) in TWW, unless one is playing the Hellcaller hero talent tree (though, even then, it has a frustrating 30 sec CD). I recall reading in the Alpha stage that Blizz had planned to make Cataclysm a more attractive choice, but not much was done to that end, in my opinion (Inferno is still stronger in most cases). Having an Overfiend cast Cataclysm regularly when Ritual of Doom triggers would allow for consistent, efficient multi-dotting of mobs, which can otherwise be achieved less efficiently only through one-by-one dotting or Cataclysm on an inconvenient 30 sec CD. This would help alleviate the burden on Hellcaller Destruction warlocks to keep Immolate (Wither) on as many targets as possible (and make Channel Demonfire even more potent and relevant, as it can sometimes feel out-of-the-way). If talented, Dimensional Rift and Unstable Rifts would likewise gain a major bonus from this, since numerous active Immolates would reliably generate DR charge refreshes. Rain of Fire is strong, but continuously pressing it again and again without the burst of Cataclysm doesn’t feel that great. Cataclysm is one of my favourite abilities, and feeling as though I cannot pick it (especially when playing Diabolist) is a bummer.

2 Likes

Concerns in regards to Ravenous Affliction

Ravenous Affliction is a new capstone talent for affliction who allows critical strike hits of corruption, agony and unstable affliction to grant a Nightfall proc.

The system currently exists on a PPM system at 0.4 procs per minute, meaning that as long as you fully saturate the number of events per minute you should be seeing 1 proc of Nightfall every 2.5 minutes.

This brings me a few concerns.

  • If the player does not have enoug critical strike chance you won’t be having enough crit events per minute to saturate the effect resulting in a lower than intended PPM (lower than 0.4) .

  • This also makes me wonder what is the objective to tie the PPM limited around only critical strikes chances, as this introduce the risk mentioned above but does not offer an increase of PPM with increase critical strike chance. (as the system caps at the intended PPM).

  • The 0.4 procs per minute look awfully low for such an effect in the capstone, it ends up being a worse version of Nightfall talent, i could understand if it was meant to be 0.4 procs per minute per dot but that is not how it currently works.

At the same time, i worry that introducing too many sources of Nightfall procs can lead to an dilution of its effect post-balancing, where you now need to invest 3~ talent points to an effect who before only required 1.

8 Likes

Personally I think the cata cd is fine with cdf extensions working properly, maintaining immolates isn’t much of an issue. So leaving the overfiend as it stands provides excellent funnel damage in aoe which destro currently does not have in retail which is needed to help burn down a prio target as well as provide extra st damage. Swapping the overfiend to cast cata we lose that funnel/st dmg functionality for a spell we already have in our tool kit

I certainly take and appreciate your point, but Cataclysm, although not as strong as Chaos Bolt in ST, still deals respectable ST damage (since it is sometimes used in ST rotations), and could, in a way, provide “funnelling” damage. I am not proposing that Cataclysm replace Chaos Bolt as the Overfiend’s ability; rather, I mean that there should be a choice node allowing one to switch between Chaos Bolt Overfiend and Cataclysm Overfiend with the same secondary talent functionality (i.e., both nodes would offer equivalent Soul Shard Fragment generation).

From a hellcaller setting you don’t really cast many incinerates because of the shard regen with cata, and with fire and brimstone it adds more to the regen so you end up hitting rof more often. Fnb doesn’t do anything for funnel dmg. You would use incinerate for a filler spell regardless. So the target you’re casting on would take the same amount of incin dmg. It doesn’t provide any additional funnel dmg.

The pros and cons of the two choice nodes would be balanced. I personally think it would be a very welcome addition. Such is the nature of civil debate, though: we just see things differently. If not a choice node in the way I have described, then I think the Cataclysm CD should be lowered to 20 or even 15 sec. Destruction could use more burst AoE.

Good post, I think this is a case where they were probably trying to rein in the amount of mobility gained by severely increasing the amount of nightfall procs gained, while also trying to tune in regard to Soul Harvester wanting more nightfall procs. Both swings and misses in regard to tuning in my opinion (aside from my desire for warlock to have decent mobility to keep up in class design as ranged on the whole).

Having a flat % proc rate (say 5% chance) would give absurd procs in aoe, especially without a cap, but would also feel subpar in single target. I wonder if it wouldn’t be prudent to go back to the drawing board with this talent and try to make something that’s more tuneable…

The talent in general doesn’t make me go “wow”, and feels bad in almost every setting to be honest. Even if it did have a higher proc rate, I still feel like shadowbolt (especially hellcaller) will just get shoved down our priority list.


Example
Maybe it could be a talent where consuming nightfall casts a rapture at a low damage percentage to incentivise nightfall use in aoe?

2 Likes

I think you do misunderstand and that’s fine maybe I can help shed some better light on it. Fnb does not provide any additional st dmg the initial target takes regular dmg. The spell cleaves everything else for a reduced amount, it’s a pure aoe ability. Cataclysm also does not provide any st dmg, it’s an aoe ability that hits everything within its circle. The overfiend provided true funnel dmg by supplying extra st dmg into your target the longer you aoe, similar to how mages have ignite, but backwards. Mage ignite spreads aoe and does increasing dmg on the main target the longer its alive. For destro the longer everything is alive the more aoe dmg we can provide, the longer the overfiend can stay out to funnel chaos bolts into the main target.

But I would not be opposed to a shorter cata cd. And would greatly help in lower keys where bursty classes nuke everything down before the ramp gets rolling because cata is still on cd. In higher keys packs live long enough and isn’t much of an issue. But the lower end is where it is problematic

1 Like

Looking back at your initial rebuttal, I see where the misunderstanding on my part arose. I am not suggesting that FnB adds additional ST damage - it doesn’t. I simply mean FnB does ST damage in addition to generating more Soul Shard Fragments by hitting other targets, which makes Soul Shard generation easier and thereby enables more Rain of Fire casts - this is not the definition of funneling in WoW, so I misinterpreted.

I disagree that Cataclysm does not offer ANY ST damage, as this is technically inaccurate. The spell does indeed damage other targets, but it also by necessity deals significant damage to a particular target within a group (not more damage, just damage). It would not be as powerful as Chaos Bolt on ST, but it still deals ST damage even as it damages other targets. Take numerous other abilities of similar ilk from different classes. Cataclysm is used in some ST rotations, too.

Yes you are correct cata does deal dmg, enough so that it can be used even in a st rotation. I actually tested that on a single test dummy a few days ago. A single cats did more dmg than a single incinerate, it’s just not funnel dmg is all I was getting at

Yes, fair, though I still stand by my choice node idea, since Chaos Bolt Overfiend and Cataclysm Overfiend would both technically offer funnelling damage (though Chaos Bolt would do so more in a truer sense of the word). The Overfiend’s Cataclysm would apply Immolate to all affected targets (though the Soul Shard generation from that would have to be appropriately balanced). At least we agree that Cataclysm should have a shorter CD lol. If anything, I think Immolate multi-dotting could be made easier.