Feedback: Warlocks

Please change the Soul Harvester Demon Soul proc to a Soulkeeper instead!

A random shadow fiend feels bad, you pruned one of the coolest Legion demons from the class tree, and a Soul Keeper is more thematic to Soul Harvesting than some shadow fiend.

Please return Life Drain back to Affliction if you won’t update the drain soul visuals from Vanilla. It’s not like Life Drain heals for anything anymore.

Affliction is a very visually muted spec, especially since the dot VFX don’t show on larger hitboxes like bosses and Malefic Rapture is a placeholder Implosion copypaste animation.

3 Likes

I personally don’t like the choice node between Crashing Chaos and Rain of Chaos. I don’t think Rain of Chaos will really ever be picked. I would rather have buffed rain of fires than a chance to summon another infernal in M+.

I feel like Dimensional rift still feels a little out of place unless they fix the targeting AI. I would hate for an incinerate to proc a portal on a add that is about to die and it be wasted. I would also prefer Immolate as the source of Rifts, not incinerate. I also agree with the others about making flame rift the capstone and the AOE baseline.

My biggest grip is that Havoc is STILL 12 seconds. That three seconds is a huge nerf when the GCD is still atrocious. Maybe the Gloom of Nathzera Hero Talent can add some time back to Havoc.

8 Likes

It would be great if you consider refreshing Agony via a shorter Vila Taint CD or somehow different without the need to manually refresh it on every target.

When you have a dark glare with a malign omen, you have two seconds to refresh agony with the next vile taint. So you refresh it manually before the next Vail taint cd anyway because in m+ you don’t have to make it and lose stacks.

When you have a malign omen you have to refresh agony manually only to refresh it again after 6 seconds with vail taint.

I don’t know it’s just not fun and it feels bad to refresh agony manually on every target and after some time playing Aff it becomes annoying. Destro on the other side feels so fluent and great to play with CDF change.

2 Likes

Even longer. I remember it being broken in VotI when I’d use destro with CDF talented on Broodkeeper. Sometimes casting a new immolate/wither doesn’t fix it either if it refreshes an existing one.

1 Like

Suggest to unlock new playstyles in Destro Warlock.

Warlock destro tree talent is pretty good, doing a great job in what node you take to make your playstyle, dont saying all builds do a great damage, but in playstyle is complete in all types of gameplay.
But, is visible that we cant take all the talents we need to make the experience an unique playstyle. For example, we cant do a full single target build because is missing some talent points that we have to spend on Rain of Fire node and its buffs, just to take permission to unlock the tier 2 of talents.
So, my suggest is add simples connection lines, starting on core talents going to 2 buffs.

  • First path - create a path starting on Havoc/Mayhem going to Scalding Flames and Indiscriminate Flames;

  • Second path - create a path starting on Summon Infernal going to Eradication and Reverse entropy / Internal combustion.

Sorry for my english, is not my mother language, but I think the idea was clear. GG`s

3 Likes

After testing a little more since the change to Seeds of Their Demise for destro, losing Ritual of Ruin procs completely from wither now makes overfiend feel pretty lack luster for single target which is where it seems like it should shine. The 4% haste proc from flashpoint is just nowhere comparable to getting Ritual of Ruin.

I think my suggestion would be to revert the change, but make it so the proc rate goes down slightly the more targets wither is currently on. That way the proc rates stay more consistent in AoE to single target

3 Likes

Largely like the changes to the tree. Especially letting rifts do AoE damage. Still want to see Flame Rift. Not sure why they’re so reluctant to give it. It’s the one that really makes Dimensional Rift feel really good when it procs.

5 Likes

Not gonna lie, I was very excited to have a sprint outside of Soulburn + Teleport.

Now this talent is dead and Eternal Servitude is an automatic lock in for PVP.

Appreciate all the work you’ve done for Warlocks… hopefully you all will get around to other classes at some point.

1 Like

About Destruction more Recent Changes

Truth be told, the synergy between Ritual of Ruin>Overfiend and Seeds of their Demise existed as a painpoint who needed adressing, and quite frankly i am glad the decision was to focus more on the Hero Talent effect than ROR or Overfiend.

But i believe the replacement being Procs of Flashpoint end up being very discordant of what previously Seed of their demise proposed to be in the Hero Talent Tree of Hellcaller.

Previously, Seeds conceding Rituals of Ruins meant it had a bigger similarity with what it concedes to affliction, and would better fit with the idea of Spenders/Stacks of blackenedsoul.

If i could offer some perspective as a player.

A - I don’t think Seeds necessarily need to give an effect who already exist, if it offered to me a new buff who just like ROR offer Shard Discount and instant cast/Faster Cast of Chaos Bolt but without any of the Overfiend synergies i would be more than fine.

B - Alternatively, Destruction toolkit have some mechanics who could fit better than the idea of Flashpoint They are:

  • Seeds of their Demise could offer a chance to generate a stack of Conflagrate, would help some mobility on destruction, some interesting but less powerfull synergies if compared to ROR too.

  • Decimation procs could also be a consideration, Soul Fires apply Wither and have similar powers per cast as Chaos bolts, so as replacement to what is Ritual of Ruin it could be an interesting option instead of Flashfire.

5 Likes

While I love a lot with what you have done to Affliction, but can we seriously look at Darkglare, it’s still beyond useless really outside of DoT extension.

Seriously if you removed Darkglare from the tree and moved its DoT extension of 8 seconds into Soul Rot, Darkglare wouldn’t even be missed.

Darkglare outside of its 8 seconds of extension even with Malevolent Visionary doesn’t feel like what a 2 min cd should bring to a spec, it’s very underwhelming and not really impactful.

It seriously needs some love.

9 Likes

Yeah it was actually such a unique and interesting talent to take and choose between a 1 minute sprint or perma movement. There are fights where burning rush is the go to and others where sprited away could have shined. It had a place for pvp too. The toxic part of this that will get it nerfed is that destro and aff essentially have 2 kicks every 30 seconds and you’ll never be able to train a demo pet since he’ll get it back so easily now. Of course that’s assuming that hero tree is meta but it will be hard to turn down double kick. The pressure that can create is huge vs some specs.

1 Like

Good catch. I didn’t think about this one with Sacrifice.

BTW it is just Aff that gets double interrupt. Destro doesnt have access to Soul Harvester hero talents.

A fair way to fix it would be ensure spell lock and sac spell lock share the same cooldown. And fel dom is used for it's intended purpose to resummon pet when it is killed and deter killing the pet playstyle.

Some feedback regarding the newest iteration of Destruction Tree:

  1. Dimension Ripper: either the proc rate is ultra low or not working at all. My suggestion is to change to “Chaos Bolt has a chance to tear open a Dimensional Rift or Immolate periodic damage has a chance to recharge Dimensional Rift if learned.” Having Immolate recharge (DF S3 bonus) feels much better than Incinerate recharge.

  2. Reverse entropy is now not easily accessible without taking Flashpoint/Fire and Brimstone. Consider moving the node or make connection to Summon Infernal.

  3. Shadowburn side of talent tree still not excited to path through compared to CDF side.

4 Likes

Wanted to give some more Feedback, this time on the class tree and all 3 specs in conjunction with their hero talent options.

Class Tree

I srongly feel like another iteration on our class tree is something the class would greatly profit from. I fully second Maginwls point about Warlocks “tanky caster” niche not being that much of a niche anymore with more and more defensive value added to other classes (that have mobility as well) and on top, while warlock has great raid utility, it’s 5man utility feels severely lacking.

Our Tree at this point in time doesnt feel very opened up and while i dont think adding circle in there was a mistake, i do think on the front of removing throughput from the tree the changes are somewhat lacking. I would love to see Sargerei Technique and Socrethar’s Guile to be removed and instead have some more utility suited towards dungeon content added instead (something like aoe curses).

Demonology

Demonology (as well as some of its hero talent options) still has some bugs to work on which makes fully testing everything somewhat difficult but i still think there is some points to adress.

First of all the capstone situation.
I do think that The Vilefiend and Dreadstalker path at the bottom is good and feels excting to build into.
Doom instead still feels like its not fully fleshed out, especially for single target encounters where its value drastically declines (it’s also somewhat bugged so its value might be higher than we think), as well as Doom Eternal feeling somewhat weird of a talent as of now. Maybe one of the Doom enhancing options could be geared towards making it an appealing choice on single target as well.
The right path that leads into Immutable Hatred and Guillotine feels very much not exciting to me right now. Especially Immutable Hatred currently has zero appeal to my eyes. If it is intended to be the passive choice for not too much of a gameplay change i can accept that but even then it has multiple issues: It scales with the demonic core economy, which was nerfed. It has no “cool” factor to it like a model change for the Felguard (e.g. to a fel lord) or some cool animation. And it might still end up being the choice if doom stays as an option more designated to multi target situations, at which point feeling forced into a talent with the cons of Immutable Hatred won’t feel good.

Other than that i mostly have minor gripes, like for example Umbral blaze still existing (it is a very boring talent without much value that feels like a tax more than anything).

For the hero talent options i gotta say i really like diabolist as it is thematically awesome for demonology and also feels good to play. Soul Harvester feels solid as well but still has bugs that makes it hard to fully evaluate. I am somewhat afraid of Soul harvester turning its speccs into “Shadowbolt the class” though, as it opens up weird builds that deal extreme amounts of damage with their filler (which then may lead to not excting gameplay).

Destruction

I think Destruction really got a massive glow up with the talent rework and overall feels pretty great. Decimation is really a highlight as it adds some excitement to the roation with reacting to proccs.
But there are still some issues i see with the current destruction tree.
First of all the rift section in the bottom right feels like something i’d never really path into except maybe rift itself for movement if i can spare the point (and even then it doesnt feel like a great movement tool). If rift is supposed to this movement tool i feel like its enhancements should play into that and, if it isnt, it needs some massive tuning to be considered worthwhile.
Second (kinda in conjunction with the rift issue) i feel like destruction is still the spec that suffers the most from mobility issues and losing out on damage while moving. With rift being such a middling option and no other real mobility tool in the tree, i do really think the spec could use something that is better than having to invest into rift (with rift staying like it is).
Third there are some concerns that we might be using rain of fire with inferno on a 2 target situation, even tho i think that havoc should be the clear choice there.
Lastly some pathing issues, like getting to Reverse Entropy/Internal Consumpotion feels a little iffy with Fire and Brimstone or Flashpoint being required while not offering much in a single target situation or having to overinvest in the first gate for Havoc (a path from Havoc to the left and right would feel amazing).

For the hero talents i do think that they are pretty close in power but Hellcaller still feels like the tree to go for as it feels like it fits more seamlessly into Destructions gameplay. In Diabolist i don’t like gloom of Nathreza as it wants us to talent Havoc and maybe even use it in single target or, if not, provides zero value outside of Havoc situations (single target Havoc is not something i see fitting into the current Destruction gameplay).
Hellcaller still feels very good overall, but i do agree with Malykith that the Seeds of their Demise nerf, while neccessary, felt a little bit extreme and 2 stacks of Flashpoint are very low on the excitement scale.

Affliciton

Affliction gameplay is an odd one, as it feels like it is affected the most by the hero talent choice.

In general i do like the new tree.
Some minor issues i see are Infirmitys effect for Vile Taint being a little on the boring/weak side, Darkglare feeling a little whelming and Ravenous Afflicitons being a very cool concept that is hamstrung by a very low rppm chance. Also Absolute Corruption versus Siphon Life feels like a not very interesting choice, as the gain from Siphon Life feels too low for you to still having to manage Corruption.
I am a little confused to what the intent is behind the cooldown timings on Soul Rot vs Oblivion and Phantom Singularity. Up to now we would usually hold Phantom Singularity for Soul Rot to amplify our 1 minute window. But with Oblivion we now have a very strong spender that profits from Infirmity and might lead to some weird gameplay, where we try to overlap them in a way that we use Phantom Singularity with a little delay to gain the bonus on Oblivion but late enough to still hit an overlap with Soul Rot and extend it with Malign Omen.
I wanna point out the aoe gameplay as a positive tho, i think that feels very nice.

As i said Afflictions gameplay feels heavily warped by its hero talent choices.
Hellcaller gameplay i think feels really nice and has a good flow to it from managing your dots to using Nightfall or Tormented Crescendo proccs to the 1minute windows of spending shards with Soul Rot.
Soul Harvester instead feels very focussed on its filler and is often derailing into Shadow Bolt spam on the beta currently and while there are some bugs still, i dont know if the gameplay will change much if those are fixed. The Soul Rot windows do feel good but as i said the in between feels pretty dull with how much value there is on our filler.

In the end i want to thank the devs for their work through the alpha and beta so far and also wanna second that i am overall very happy and impressed with the reworks and how feedback was responded to and implemented.

11 Likes

I think I would prefer this, actually. I never liked Darkglare anyway. Just make Soul Rot our big cooldown, and be done with it.

4 Likes

I think this is a good point. During Dragonflight I was always advocating for more stat amplification instead of flat % damage increases to our major demons (look at Reign of Tyranny for demo for flat damage increases) as they are more impactful to the player instead of just the demon. For instance, I think having tyrant increase mastery by X% is better than a flat damage increase to all demons.

There’s something to be said about having impactful demons, but I think it kind of misses out on having a large impact on the class as a whole. Destruction and demo have largely solved this issue and don’t necessarily need a lot of rework in this regard, although I’d rather see Rain of Chaos transition into making infernal either a ramping critical strike amplification or a decreasing critical strike amp (reverse ramp – start high-end low). More infernals are cool, but they overcap the player on shards and is less impactful than it could be if it provided more direct damage increases. Honestly, if they moved in this direction, I think you could just eliminate the choice node for crashing chaos, and just make Infernal a stacking crit amp as it fills both choice nodes by making Infernal a stronger cooldown.

I think if we transitioned demons into keeping the current weight they have, but also added some form of stat amp on top of it (think old Dark Soul) it would make them even more appealing. If Darkglare increased haste by some % while it was out (like Dark Soul Misery), or increased dot tick rate instead of increasing dot length, I think it would have more usefulness; Affliction already suffers from slow ramp-up to some extent, so having a cd that either increases resources or reduces ramp seems to be a better solution than one that is exacerbated by having to set everything up first. It also reinforces dots instead of rapture. Darkglare wouldn’t feel as completely useless if you didn’t have time to set all your dots up, and instead just increased damage over time tick rate to increase shard gen, while also impacting both of our hero talent trees in positive ways – currently darkglare is impactful for hero talents, but to most people it seems exceedingly weak because of how unintuitive the strength is. I think a lot of newer and experienced affliction players have probably felt like they hit Darkglare at the wrong time and could’ve waited and set up more dots – a cooldown shouldn’t feel taxed in this regard.

In the past, you could use Darksoul as a way to reduce GCD to set up your dots, even though it was sub-optimal to do, something I wish Darkglare would end up mimicking.

6 Likes

CROSS POSTING FROM HERE - The class set feedback thread

WARLOCK

Affliction: I’ve never been a huge fan of randomness (truly random % proc chances, I know crit is random) in tier sets, I think affliction could use something similar to destruction where the 4pc interacts with the 2pc a bit more.

Maybe make it so that each time Rapture critically strikes it increases your dot damage by X% and stacks but does not refresh. It’s simple, but also makes the increased critical strike chance make more sense, while also incentivizing rapture windows!


example:

  • (2) Set Bonus: Malefic Rapture damage increased by 5% and its critical strike chance is increased by 10%.
  • (4) Set Bonus: Each time Malefic Rapture critically strikes, it increases the damage dealt by your Agony, Corruption, and Unstable Affliction by 5% for 10 seconds. This effect stacks but does not refresh.

You could make it be all dots by X% for Xs if it makes it feel any better.

(before people complain that this makes damage have an exceedingly high variance during rapture windows, since you might not crit and somebody else might, it will average out over time IMO)


EDIT: adding more info after reading the first blue post

  • Having a completely random chance, almost feels like an upkeep buff with the current set design in all forms of content. Is it worth it to spam rapture to keep the buff up, or is it best to hold rapture and be happy when it procs?
  • It’s difficult to determine when to rapture if we are meant to maintain this buff, or to hold shards and use in rapture windows. This is particularly more relevant in raid, as we have a more strict rotation, and makes the current affliction set unintuitive since it’s more difficult to determine whether it makes more sense to rapture more outside of our shard dump windows. This might impact newer players, particularly those using the soul harvester talent tree.
2 Likes

No, warlocks summon demons. I don’t want to lose more demons when they just pruned our cool Soul Keeper model from Legion and then our Avatar of Destruction from SL and all we have now is a lame green firelord recolor (seriously, a model that should be for shamans?).