[FEEDBACK] Shadowlands Covenant Switching

[Madbeatz-illidan]

GREAT suggestions so far. I love the focus on player immersion and benefit rather than value that solely goes towards Acti-Blizz. Keep them coming.

Instead of charging people to switch covenants - which punishes those people willing to tank/heal and/or willing to play optimally for the group they’re joining - perhaps a reward can be given to those players that stick with a single covenant and show loyalty?

If they want choice to matter and have meaning - they can still incentivize and reward those people willing to make a solid commitment without punishing players that say… take on a tank role for their guilds raids, but also enjoy PvP.

Giving something like a mount - or a special tint of their covenants mount at the end of the expansion at the end of every season would still reward players that stick it out with a single covenant - immersing them in the benefits of staying loyal long term - but avoids the negative aspects of charging people to switch covenants when they’re just trying to play the game Blizzard has created.

specific great suggestions provided down below are:

• To shorten the commitment to each season and have rewards given at those shorter time intervals
• Provide discounts on repair bills to players who stay committed; with the discounts possibly increasing the longer you stay committed.
• With the new M+ cache being change to picking from 6 options - committed players could earn an extra choice.
• Players could be given extra Anima out of their weekly chest; perhaps scaling with each week committed to that covenant (capping at some point).
• Consumables could be awarded on a weekly basis; also scaling the longer a players sticks with their covenant.
• Providing additional xmogs/mounts that connect and tie in to the covenant themes.

The key to all of these great ideas: Blizzard isn’t the sole beneficiary of the “consequence” being imposed on those that are just trying to play the game optimally AND these ideas all have an objective benefit to those players who stick with their choice

Thanks to all who have contributed so far - keep the ideas coming!

In a game with so many ways to play - and with players willing to help out groups by taking on healing/tanking roles - it seems silly to charge them for trying to play “for the greater good” in a role that doesn’t blow things up. Especially when playing from multiple roles influences players to become better at the game.

Thoughts on this alternate approach to covenants?

[Chelleybee-stormrage]

Or like, the advanced armor from leveling your covenant they have planned?

[Madbeatz-illidan]

Sure. Pretty much ANYTHING that doesn’t punish players for trying to become better players by playing multiple roles and/or players that are willing to take on the less “flashy” roles like tanks/healers. Specifically things that don’t benefit a company, and that instead, reward players.

I enjoy RP and all that - but I’d never want someone else to be charged for trying to help others out by serving a role that’s needed. Not only does it de-incentivize altruistic behavior - but it also pushes people away towards other games that have no where near the kinds of role restrictions that WoW has.

Here are some great examples:

For example when we see the plate mog for Venthyr, it just looks like some red plate mog, it doesnt feel vampiric enough, a mog that would feel vampiric enough would be something like a long cape, black and red colours, victorian era clothing etc.

There are other ways that could make the RP side more interesting, for example as venthyr you could have bat wing instead of cloaks, or a rly long cape that could even levitate, or other small things like vampire teeth on your character of any race, things that would obviously signify you are part of that covenant and into that vampire/goth fantasy. Or like a toy or appearance that changes you into a lich for maldraxxus.

The problem is they need to focus a lot on those and create something that truly feels like that covenant’s fantasy.

you can switch within a time period and if you stay committed until the next tier - you get another reward; it could be another mount, or maybe just a different tint of the covenant mount (kind of like Legion Artifacts).

One of the great changes in SL - is the M+ weekly chest being expanded to 6 choices.

What if sticking to a single covenant for over x weeks would add one extra choice to that list?

Or what if the Anima we acquired in our weekly chest had a 10% boost once that “x week” threshold was reached?

I also like the idea of giving players an option to acquire in-game consumables as a reward.

I’m definitely more on the “hippy” train and while I plan on sticking with one Covenant solely for the transmog - I don’t want other players to be charged just so they can switch things up - all to just benefit the game company?

No thanks - I’ll take either rewards for my actions or some other idea.

[Liliu-wyrmrest-accord]

Ooh is there new info about the Shadowlands out somewhere? I haven’t been able to read up on it. Where can I find it?

[Latharael-the-scryers]

I like the idea that Ion presented where you’d get to try out each covenant as part of the natural progression. Once complete with the story you pick which covenant you liked the best. That seems to address the issue well don’t you think?

I think the reason for not allowing folks to switch covenants all the time is to build a relationship with a covenant and form some bond with the work you’ve put in with them. Allowing zero-cost switching would make covenants feel more like specs, which lowers their inherent value.

[Madbeatz-illidan]

I like the idea that Ion presented where you’d get to try out each covenant as part of the natural progression. Once complete with the story you pick which covenant you liked the best. That seems to address the issue well don’t you think?

I think the reason for not allowing folks to switch covenants all the time is to build a relationship with a covenant and form some bond with the work you’ve put in with them. Allowing zero-cost switching would make covenants feel more like specs, which lowers their inherent value.

For some yes - this ends up being reasonable. The reward idea would benefit those people the most actually.

But for many others who value the challenging aspects of the content that Blizzard provides across the the different types of great content they’ve created - The feeling is quite negative.

If we PvE - Blizzard fine tunes the end-game fights so well and tight, that having every possible option max/min’d is essential - right down the every last consumable that cost 100’s of gold each (that also need to be reset with each pull).

I personally only play WoW over most of the other games precisely because of this challenging end-game content - despite many of the restrictions and time-sink elements it has over other, more time efficient, games.

So making Covenants be able to work like specs is EXTREMELY valuable for these kinds of players.

It also rewards careful thinking and strategizing of all the combinations of abilities, passives, proc’s, etc. that is available to our class. It can get pretty complex - but lots of people, like myself, specifically enjoy WoW and it’s challenging content because of all of the diversity involved with planning our game night.

It’s pretty amazing - and although some specific class spells and balance aren’t perfect, overall it’s definitely one of the top pieces of value that WoW provides. I know not everyone would agree and think the people that view this game that way are “elitist” and “harmful to the game” - but we exist, and Blizzard makes content for us.

The biggest issue comes into play when you have players that love WoW and ALL of it’s content so much, that when they take on roles like tanks and healers in PvE - optimizing across content types pretty much necessitates the ability to change things up like talents if they also want to play in the PvP area (ESPECIALLY if they’re a tank - because tanks just don’t make sense in competitive PvP).

So instead of punishing the competitive players that are willing to play the essential non-dps roles for us in PvE that also enjoy playing a great game in all it’s forms - Reward the players that are willing to take on more of an RPG mindset to the game.

Punishing players for wanting to be helpful and diverse puts more negativity into the game that I think most people give credit.

[Latharael-the-scryers]

I personally only play WoW over most of the other games precisely because of this challenging end-game content - despite many of the restrictions and time-sink elements it has over other, more time efficient, games.

So making Covenants be able to work like specs is EXTREMELY valuable for these kinds of players.

This is where the min/max and RP elements of the game are in contrast. I get that covenant switching allows for one more choice to provide an edge in an end-game challenge. I also enjoy lots of choices and for similar reasons.

That said, I specifically enjoy making long-term choices that cannot easily be changed. I loved the gold-cost and barrier on classic WoW skill trees because it made me think about who/what I wanted my character to be and made me persist through choices I later might have changed. I think it comes down to motivations for playing at that point. I come at things a lot more from the RP angle and really enjoy durable choices that are changed rarely.

I understand your desire to have everything a toggle to maximize the number of options available to solve challenging scenarios, but would like to see some long-term stable choices in character development as well.

[Chroesire-bleeding-hollow (Chroesire)]

If at all possible I think it’d be better if they try to find a way to design covenants such that they aren’t minmaxable or their net differences are negligible for anybody but the top 0.0001%. If it’s switchable at the drop of a hat it’s not actually a choice.

[Madbeatz-illidan]

That said, I specifically enjoy making long-term choices that cannot easily be changed. I loved the gold-cost and barrier on classic WoW skill trees because it made me think about who/what I wanted my character to be and made me persist through choices I later might have changed. I think it comes down to motivations for playing at that point. I come at things a lot more from the RP angle and really enjoy durable choices that are changed rarely.

I understand your desire to have everything a toggle to maximize the number of options available to solve challenging scenarios, but would like to see some long-term stable choices in character development as well.

Right - I get how they are in contrast.

I also get how some players value the other way of thinking. But why would they prefer a system that punishes others for being altruistic and willing to play multiple roles for the community over a system that rewards them for a more RP style of play?

I don’t understand how players that are more RP based would be THAT sadistic to prefer a charge/fee to others trying to be good people and help the wow player base over an RP benefit/reward over the more competitive players.

[Latharael-the-scryers]

But why would they prefer a system that punishes others for being altruistic and willing to play multiple roles for the community over a system that rewards them for a more RP style of play?

I don’t understand how players that are more RP based would be THAT sadistic to prefer a charge/fee to others trying to be good people and help the wow player base over an RP benefit/reward over the more competitive players.

It’s not motivated by sadism, at least not from me specifically. Rather, it’s a desire to attach meaning to choices. If everything can be swapped with a single click, then why have the choice at all? Why not have all the covenant abilities available at all times, or even just have the game auto-switch to the right ability for a situation.

I’d rather see encounters designed differently to allow competitive players to make choices while still retaining meaningful choices within the main narrative.

It seems like one solution here would be to have end-game encounters allow for some kind of ability switching or borrowing mechanic. Perhaps the leaders of the covenants could come together when fighting the ultimate big bad and provide cross-covenant choices just for certain raids or encounters? I don’t know, just brainstorming.

My motivation for long-term choices and barriers to switching is to build a connection with the choice. If everything can be changed at a click, it has no real meaning. At that point, covenants may as well just be another row in the talent tree.

[Yungaemisu-moon-guard]

No. Let there be choices that matter. Not everything needs to be freeform. You don’t NEED to be min-maxed for every possible situation on a whim. That’s a mentality that honestly feels unique to the WoW community (at least in the scale it exists here), and it’s incredibly unhealthy. Just have fun playing the game.

[Madbeatz-illidan]

It’s not motivated by sadism, at least not from me specifically. Rather, it’s a desire to attach meaning to choices.

The meaning could still be there for the RP folks through the rewards that are earned for playing in that style. You don’t need to charge people to achieve the same kind of meaning you’re referencing.

If everything can be swapped with a single click, then why have the choice at all? Why not have all the covenant abilities available at all times,

Because the different clicks change up the way your character can use their powers - so much so that the performance increase can be quite substantial. This adds elements to strategizing that the Heroic/Mythic/M+ players really enjoy about the game.

even just have the game auto-switch to the right ability for a situation.

Other games have started to take on “templates” for exactly this kind of thing - their developers have recognized and valued their customers efficiency for time and have focused on taking something that took 40+ clicks down to less than 5. Similar to the way we can save gearsets now.

I’d rather see encounters designed differently to allow competitive players to make choices while still retaining meaningful choices within the main narrative.

I feel the same - but until that’s been achieved, the issue remains.

It seems like one solution here would be to have end-game encounters allow for some kind of ability switching or borrowing mechanic. Perhaps the leaders of the covenants could come together when fighting the ultimate big bad and provide cross-covenant choices just for certain raids or encounters? I don’t know, just brainstorming.

Hmmm great thought starter.

Well first - I think in order to access each covenants abilities, you’d need to go through each respective questline and earn each version. Maybe the ability to switch freely could require achievements like AotC, +10’ing all dungeons in time, and hitting a particular Arena rating in order to switch within those respective content types.

I’m all for earning the ability to switch - I just don’t feel right about our guild tanks being charged constantly because they’re willing to take on that role for us when they also like to PvP on off-raid nights. Especially when Blizzard is the one receiving that gold.

My motivation for long-term choices and barriers to switching is to build a connection with the choice.

The idea is to the reward players that are willing to commit to the mindset of building a connection with the 1st choice they made., instead of having a system that punishes players that play with a more altruistic approach.

[Yungaemisu-moon-guard]

The idea is to the reward players that are willing to commit to the mindset of building a connection with the 1st choice they made., instead of having a system that punishes players that play with a more altruistic approach.

You suggestion to incentivize sticking to a choice is to throw useless vanity garbage at the player. That’s not an incentive at all for me.

[Seriadyn-barthilas]

Or just don’t do any of that?
Don’t punish or give special favors to people for sticking with for a whole expansion.
If anything the only “punishment” should be to have progression set back or reset, preferably just set back, in fact I’m fairly certain that’ll be what the “cost” is.
Still sucks but w/e.

[Madbeatz-illidan]

That’s a mentality that honestly feels unique to the WoW community

I think that’s because one of WoW’s strengths over other games is it’s challenging content that is the origin of the “need” to max/min.

People don’t max/min for Normal raids and M0’s. They max/min for the content Blizzard created that goes beyond that.

Especially in Mythic raids - Blizzard has done a tremendous amount of work balancing the numbers so finely that max/mining for each boss fight is pretty much required.

[Trainwreckt-illidan]

You suggestion to incentivize sticking to a choice is to throw useless vanity garbage at the player. That’s not an incentive at all for me.

Do you value the system that charges players gold (which goes to Blizzard) for being willing to take on multiple roles then? Is this because you have a more sadistic view on the game and enjoy punishing altruistic players?

Because charging players makes Blizzard money - it doesn’t benefit the players.

Would you prefer making the choice permanent without any means of switching?

[Yungaemisu-moon-guard]

Do you value the system that charges players gold (which goes to Blizzard) for being willing to take on multiple roles then?

I think you have a twisted view of reality if this is how you’re describing making a choice that’s intended to be impactful.

You can take on ALL roles as ANY covenant. Just like you can play all roles in BfA without reforging your Azerite Traits every time you swap.

As I said already, you don’t have to min-max every aspect of your gameplay for every possible role that you might choose to use on a whim.

The ability to change it is going to be inconvenient because it will only exist for the benefit of people who intend to make a long-term change at some point along the way. As opposed to being stuck with it forever.

Would you rather not have the ability to change covenants at all? Just because then at least Blizzard isn’t getting your gold? (Which is an insane thought on it’s own btw, can’t believe you said that)

[Astodam-sargeras]

I just want some choices to actually matter.

I don’t care what it is, but I want the choice to be meaningful. I would hope that they would actually not let you switch after you’ve picked, to be honest. However they mitigate the consequences of that, I don’t know.

[Trainwreckt-illidan]

I just want some choices to actually matter.

I don’t care what it is, but I want the choice to be meaningful. I would hope that they would actually not let you switch after you’ve picked, to be honest. However they mitigate the consequences of that, I don’t know.

Why do you prefer consequences to people that are willing to help out the community by changing things up instead of receiving a reward for sticking to your choice?

I know a lot of people with the RP mindset that would prefer the ability to gain a new RP component in the game over a system that just gives Blizzard more gold from the players or wastes players’ time by doing redundant content.

The key to all of these great ideas: Blizzard isn’t the sole beneficiary of the “consequence” being imposed on those that are just trying to play the game optimally AND these ideas all have an objective benefit to those players who stick with their choice

I like the idea of meaningful choices - but there are a lot of other ways to go about making this happen than imposing a punitive measure on people that are just trying to play the game as best as possible.

I’d much rather see punitive measures taken against players that partake in negative actions in the game rather than actions that objectively help the game.

This. Punishing players trying to help the community instead of punishing players that are toxic to it doesn’t make any sense.

[Astodam-sargeras]

Why do you prefer consequences to people that are willing to help out the community by changing things up instead of receiving a reward for sticking to your choice?

Maybe they should make it to where it shouldn’t have that much of an impact on the group dynamic then.