Feedback: Rogues

This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Rogues in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

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Assassination

Assassination has seen numerous changes in Midnight to focus it on its core damage-over-time maintenance and Energy management gameplay. We’ve removed a number of special case ability uses from its rotation, such as applying Caustic Spatter with Mutilate, and reduced the number of abilities used in its cooldown windows. We’ve updated its AOE gameplay to remove the need to enter stealth to apply bleeds to multiple targets - you now periodically re-apply Garrote and Rupture and use the new Crimson Tempest to spread them to nearby enemies. There have been multiple updates to its Hero Talents as well to make them play well within Assassination’s rotation. We’ve also added an element of Energy management and timing. Assassination Rogues are deliberate fighters, and choosing when to spend Energy is an important part of their gameplay. There are strong new rewards for maintaining unbroken strings of Envenoms, so you’ll want to bank Energy then stretch every Envenom to its limit to keep the pressure on your targets.


Outlaw

Outlaw before Midnight could be a very demanding spec to play. The factors involved in when to cast Roll the Bones could be complex, performance relied on a lot on how long you could keep Adrenaline Rush going, and its shortened global cooldown could result in a high rate of actions per minute. In Midnight, we intend for Outlaw to be a very approachable rogue spec while still embodying its fantasy of a tricky, resourceful, sometimes underhanded fighter that is willing to roll the dice and take a chance. Roll the Bones now grants a single bonus of varying power, Outlaw no longer uses Vanish offensively, and Adrenaline Rush has a consistent duration but provides a bigger boost while active. Outlaw gameplay is based around building and spending combo points and managing your Energy, with several random bonuses that can trigger and change up your rotation. Crackshot has been removed, but talents enable Between the Eyes to reset its own cooldown and stack its bonus multiple times. We hope you enjoy taking up your blades and pistol and living the life of an Outlaw!


Subtlety

Coming into Midnight, Subtlety had a multitude of overlapping damage increases from cooldowns, conditional bonuses, and temporary effects that needed to be precisely aligned in unintuitive ways to produce good damage results. It overly punished players for getting it wrong, and even when getting it right it could make Subtlety’s rotational gameplay feel much more rigid than it should for a spec that is intended to give players flexibility and control over its cooldown-driven damage windows. Subtlety’s Midnight updates are focused on giving cooldowns and effects a clear purpose while also reducing the number of conditional effects that need to be tracked. This will better reward intuitive decisions and produce more reliable damage output and satisfying rotational gameplay. Additional changes are aimed at further improving approachability by reducing total rotational button count, culling unimportant buff icons, removing effects that punish downtime, and creating more value potential for historically-weak secondary stats Haste and Critical Strike.


Fatebound Hero Talents

Midnight’s changes to Fatebound are intended to make its benefits more reliable in different types of content. Fateful Ending’s “all or nothing” benefit that ended at the end of combat has been replaced. Several Fatebound talents didn’t scale well against multiple targets or trigger effects like Caustic Spatter. Those have been updated with new designs with more universal value.

4 Likes

Just some notes I have come across so far concerning Assassination spec. There are five talents affecting Garrote in in different areas of the tree that could have been consolidated. Flat damage increases should be condensed or baked into the spell. For example Bloody Mess and Avulsion. Too many generic % inc talents spread around. Amplifying poison is a required talent for single target but is locked behind aoe talents. Dashing scoundrel doesn’t feel tuned to the level of competing capstone talents. The final point invested into the apex talent does not seem related to the rest of the nodes. It seems like it is better suited as the follow up talent for kingsbane. Feels a bit clunky having both Fan of Knives and Crimson Tempest. Going with the theme of changes, their functionality could be merged leaving only one aoe generator. Energy economy in aoe is horrible after the nerf to venomous wounds. In conjunction with the high cost of crimson tempest the flow of combat slows down drastically when trying to spread your bleeds to other targets and hardly feels worth it because the pay out from venomous wounds is too little.

10 Likes

Hello. I am the WoWhead guide writer for Outlaw, and I raid in a World 25~ guild and have played various Rogue specs for the past 6-8 years. I want to break down my initial thoughts after playing alpha for about 15~ hours on dummies.

Overall, I think the direction of Rogue is quite promising. More so than any other class in the game, Rogue is loaded with a lot of annoying optimizations that worsen the experience for most of the player base. Thankfully, it appears that Midnight is focused on removing the “annoying” and not so much on turning all three specs into a yellow BM Hunter/Ret Paladin in terms of rotational depth.

First, I want to discuss Assassination, which I feel only received direct upgrades to its gameplay overall. For spells being removed, we lost Shiv, which, realistically speaking, didn’t add much to the rotation overall (Other than for the purely bleed-focused dungeon builds), and Crimson Tempest, which was replaced with a much more interesting ability. Regarding things being added, we got the rework mentioned above for Crimson Tempest, which removed the need to get restealths in dungeons to make the spec feel good to play. While in one breath this “lowers the complexity of the spec” it just increases the QoL and adds a new dimension of “Do I want to Fan of Knives here, vs Crimson Tempest to spread bleeds”. Additionally, I think the returned focus on energy pooling is fantastic, as the current way to play Assassination on single-target is incredibly ignorant. The way the pooling is rewarded is also great, as it’s energy that feels good to play with. Good play = more energy = more fun.

Outlaw is in a medium spot overall. I love the return to a more BFA/SL gameplay style rather than the Vanish-centric, Adrenaline Rush-extending playstyle we’ve had for TWW. I also think that the rework to Roll the Bones is a fantastic middle ground between keeping the variant playstyle intact, while also making it significantly easier to understand at first glance. I think baking in the Crackshot effect into Ace Up Your Sleeves is a fantastic choice as well; however, this being a two-pointer node, where the additional talent point improves the amount of combo points refunded, leaves us in a situation where we probably only put one talent point into it. The apex talent also feels great to play with, maybe the duration of the buffs could be extended to help in dungeons but that’s about it negative to say. There are a few issues I have with Outlaw. Firstly, I feel energy is slightly worse than it needs to be. In most gameplay instances, you are fine juggling the energy gains from Adrenaline Rush, Thistle Tea, and Blade Rush; however, when you eventually run out of everything, it does not feel great, even if these moments are few and far between. Second a small amount of agency has been removed from the spec with the removal of Crackshot/UHUH where you can no longer easily move your cooldowns effectively to help with certain points of an encounter. A good example is the last boss of Brackenhide Hollow, where the boss spawns a totem. Originally, Outlaw was terrible at dealing with this, but with Crackshot, the spec could assist when needed. While Outlaw inherently is not a spec tooled to be good at burst damage, I feel something as simple as a talent that reads “You have an additional charge of Adrenaline Rush” could help massively. Third is the overall Capstone power level. While obviously this is a very early alpha stage, it feels like the Capstones are playing it a little bit too safe compared to many other classes. Stuff like Keep it Rolling seems hard to justify with how little impact it has without access to Count the Odds and the new Roll the Bones mechanics. Something as simple as “Extend and +1 stage” could be a good solution. Talents like Hidden Opportunity don’t feel as rewarding to take as they may be intended to. Lastly, Takem By Surprise has gotta go. The talent makes no sense with the removal of Vanish from Restless Blades and the overall shift away design-wise from Stealth in general from the spec.

Lastly, to talk about Subtlety Rogue, this spec needs help badly. Again, obviously, this is Alpha, and the spec still doesn’t even have its apex talents in place, but the decision to tie CDR to Haste needs to be looked at again. While it is true that Subtlety doesn’t like Haste, I feel this problem doesn’t even need solving. In addition, this solution doesn’t do much to solve the problem beyond making hardline breakpoints. Let’s say you need a Shadow Dance/Symbols for midway through an encounter, the only way to effectively do this is to math out “How much Haste I need for a specific encounter,” which I feel is the absolute worst way to handle making a stat good for a spec. The spec also feels exceptionally terrible on PTR because the CDR is tuned so low that the entire rotation is “Symbols + Dance + SecTec + Blades” then hard AFK through backstabbing with barely enough energy to play, until your next Blades because the CDR is not effective enough.

Overall, I am a big fan of the direction of the Rogue changes; however, I’m praying we don’t get forgotten during alpha/beta, which is all too familiar to longtime Rogue players. I think there is a great foundation here to work off of, but some changes for sure need to still be made to iron out Outlaw/Sub.

69 Likes

Hello. Rogue player of 15 years here. Seen lots of changes to the class over the years, but wanted to add my 2 cents.

Assassination Feedback
I was going to add a section about Assassination, but ForeverGuy (the gentleman above me) covered everything I wanted to say quite nicely.

  • I love the direction Assassination is headed in and as much as I love playing around stealth, the changes to Deathstalker’s Mark being applied by Garrote and not requiring re-stealths in dungeons through Crimson Tempest changes are awesome. I sign up for stealthing when I play rogue, my dungeon group does not.
  • Simplifying Assassination as well by changing certain interactions (how Caustic Spatter is applied, optimal time to use Shiv, removal of Sanguine Blades needing to keep energy above 50%, etc.) has drastically lessened the amount of nuisances for Assassination and has made it much more relaxing to play in cases where you needed to manage all these extras.
  • One thing I do want to bring up, and is my biggest frustration with Assassination, is how Deathmark works. Having our major / 2 minute cooldown be applied to the target rather than buffing the player can be very frustrating. If the target dies early or you need to swap targets for CC, it does not feel good. I know there are workarounds to this (use Deathmark on something that will live the full duration, mouseover macros for CC), but if we are working towards removing annoyances I know for me this is one. Things like Kingsbane don’t feel as bad because of the shorter cooldown. Looking at many other specs in the game, I believe Assassination is one of, if not the only spec that still has it’s major / 2 minute cooldown applied to a target instead of buffing the player.

Subtlety Rogue feedback

  • Changing from combo points reducing Secret Technique and Shadow Dance cooldowns to Haste reducing those two & Symbols of Death makes the spec do big damage every ~75 seconds and then Backstab + Rupture/Eviscerate/Black Powder during downtime between major cooldowns. This makes the spec very boring outside of every minute and change. Having haste reduce the cooldowns mentioned could lead to haste breakpoints to make the spec feel fluid / good to play or even end up being fight dependent depending on when you would need those cooldowns. This could add way more complexity to the spec than what is on live servers right now.
    Things on alpha at this time don’t line up nicely with haste: 30s cooldown become ~25s, 45s cooldowns become ~37s with about 20% haste. With our major cooldown being 90s, hasted cooldowns also doesn’t let them line up well with Shadow Blades and will lead to having to decide if you should use a cooldown or hold it to line up with other cooldowns down the line. (Unless there is a certain amount of haste that makes it line up again - hence breakpoint.)
    The feedback loop of combo points reducing our cooldowns felt good and very rewarding when you executed rotations correctly. This also allowed flexibility on when to use cooldowns (group of adds needs bursted down on a boss for example). With haste reducing it, timings become a lot more rigid and this flexibility is lost unless all cooldowns are held for extended periods of time. At this time, I wouldn’t use Shadow Dance outside of Shadow Blades because you want 2 charges of it for your major cooldown.

  • Danse Macabre was changed from a stacking damage increase buff to ‘does damage’ per unique combo point generator / spender while in shadow dance. Danse Macabre has always felt clunky to me because you were encouraged to use a backstab and a Shuriken storm instead of shadowstrike in your shadow dance windows and this added a lot of complexity and extra buttons to press. The talent itself and how it interacts (unique abilities) is the weird part here, whether it does damage or increases damage I feel doesn’t matter as much. I would recommend changing this talent somehow so you’re not encouraged to use backstab / shuriken storm during a Shadow Dance window or replacing it completely if possible.

  • Dark Shadow (passive node) & Symbols of Death changed from both buffing all damage to Dark Shadows buffing Shadowstrike damage and Symbols buffing finisher damage. My suggestion here is to drop Symbols and combine the buffs into one button / talent (Dark Shadows). Shadow Dance (Dark Shadows) and Symbols are generally used together anyway and in a lot of cases, just macro’d together. Symbols has always been a weird extra button since being implemented. With the change of Shadow Dance procing Supercharger combo points now (old Echoing Reprimand anima combo points), Symbols feels like a second Thistle Tea and an extra button that has played a part in adding unnecessary complexity to the spec.

  • The buff to Shadowstrike makes it hit harder than finishers. This feels really weird. The builder damage is usually smaller than finisher damage so you’re encouraged to build and then spend. This could lead to finishers not being used during a Shadow Dance window because you would do more damage by just hitting Shadowstrike. Finishers should always hit harder, especially with how Sub rogue Mastery works where it buffs your finishers. Putting emphasis on Sub rogue finishers through it’s mastery and then having your builder hit harder does not line up.

I recognize we are still missing Apex & Hero talents for Subtlety rogue, but these are my thoughts thus far.

I do not play Outlaw much and haven’t touched the spec since Dragonflight so I will leave that in the capable hands of our Outlaw connoisseurs.

17 Likes

In regards to Assassinations apex talents waiting 5-7 seconds (based on cp spent) for envenom to fall off for the energy recharge to kick in is entirely too long. You can nearly recharge to full energy in that time before taking advantage of a full 100% bonus from chaining enough envenoms. This is not exciting or compelling by any means. You easily find times you can exceed well beyond the 5 envenoms required to hit the 100% bonus without ever having to consider pooling resources. However energy regen ultimately is tuned can alter this greatly but regardless waiting for up to 7 seconds to activate this talent seems kind of useless.