Feedback: Rogues

This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Rogues in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

4 Likes

Assassination

Assassination has seen numerous changes in Midnight to focus it on its core damage-over-time maintenance and Energy management gameplay. We’ve removed a number of special case ability uses from its rotation, such as applying Caustic Spatter with Mutilate, and reduced the number of abilities used in its cooldown windows. We’ve updated its AOE gameplay to remove the need to enter stealth to apply bleeds to multiple targets - you now periodically re-apply Garrote and Rupture and use the new Crimson Tempest to spread them to nearby enemies. There have been multiple updates to its Hero Talents as well to make them play well within Assassination’s rotation. We’ve also added an element of Energy management and timing. Assassination Rogues are deliberate fighters, and choosing when to spend Energy is an important part of their gameplay. There are strong new rewards for maintaining unbroken strings of Envenoms, so you’ll want to bank Energy then stretch every Envenom to its limit to keep the pressure on your targets.


Outlaw

Outlaw before Midnight could be a very demanding spec to play. The factors involved in when to cast Roll the Bones could be complex, performance relied on a lot on how long you could keep Adrenaline Rush going, and its shortened global cooldown could result in a high rate of actions per minute. In Midnight, we intend for Outlaw to be a very approachable rogue spec while still embodying its fantasy of a tricky, resourceful, sometimes underhanded fighter that is willing to roll the dice and take a chance. Roll the Bones now grants a single bonus of varying power, Outlaw no longer uses Vanish offensively, and Adrenaline Rush has a consistent duration but provides a bigger boost while active. Outlaw gameplay is based around building and spending combo points and managing your Energy, with several random bonuses that can trigger and change up your rotation. Crackshot has been removed, but talents enable Between the Eyes to reset its own cooldown and stack its bonus multiple times. We hope you enjoy taking up your blades and pistol and living the life of an Outlaw!


Subtlety

Coming into Midnight, Subtlety had a multitude of overlapping damage increases from cooldowns, conditional bonuses, and temporary effects that needed to be precisely aligned in unintuitive ways to produce good damage results. It overly punished players for getting it wrong, and even when getting it right it could make Subtlety’s rotational gameplay feel much more rigid than it should for a spec that is intended to give players flexibility and control over its cooldown-driven damage windows. Subtlety’s Midnight updates are focused on giving cooldowns and effects a clear purpose while also reducing the number of conditional effects that need to be tracked. This will better reward intuitive decisions and produce more reliable damage output and satisfying rotational gameplay. Additional changes are aimed at further improving approachability by reducing total rotational button count, culling unimportant buff icons, removing effects that punish downtime, and creating more value potential for historically-weak secondary stats Haste and Critical Strike.


Fatebound Hero Talents

Midnight’s changes to Fatebound are intended to make its benefits more reliable in different types of content. Fateful Ending’s “all or nothing” benefit that ended at the end of combat has been replaced. Several Fatebound talents didn’t scale well against multiple targets or trigger effects like Caustic Spatter. Those have been updated with new designs with more universal value.

5 Likes

Just some notes I have come across so far concerning Assassination spec. There are five talents affecting Garrote in in different areas of the tree that could have been consolidated. Flat damage increases should be condensed or baked into the spell. For example Bloody Mess and Avulsion. Too many generic % inc talents spread around. Amplifying poison is a required talent for single target but is locked behind aoe talents. Dashing scoundrel doesn’t feel tuned to the level of competing capstone talents. The final point invested into the apex talent does not seem related to the rest of the nodes. It seems like it is better suited as the follow up talent for kingsbane. Feels a bit clunky having both Fan of Knives and Crimson Tempest. Going with the theme of changes, their functionality could be merged leaving only one aoe generator. Energy economy in aoe is horrible after the nerf to venomous wounds. In conjunction with the high cost of crimson tempest the flow of combat slows down drastically when trying to spread your bleeds to other targets and hardly feels worth it because the pay out from venomous wounds is too little.

14 Likes

Hello. I am the WoWhead guide writer for Outlaw, and I raid in a World 25~ guild and have played various Rogue specs for the past 6-8 years. I want to break down my initial thoughts after playing alpha for about 15~ hours on dummies.

Overall, I think the direction of Rogue is quite promising. More so than any other class in the game, Rogue is loaded with a lot of annoying optimizations that worsen the experience for most of the player base. Thankfully, it appears that Midnight is focused on removing the “annoying” and not so much on turning all three specs into a yellow BM Hunter/Ret Paladin in terms of rotational depth.

First, I want to discuss Assassination, which I feel only received direct upgrades to its gameplay overall. For spells being removed, we lost Shiv, which, realistically speaking, didn’t add much to the rotation overall (Other than for the purely bleed-focused dungeon builds), and Crimson Tempest, which was replaced with a much more interesting ability. Regarding things being added, we got the rework mentioned above for Crimson Tempest, which removed the need to get restealths in dungeons to make the spec feel good to play. While in one breath this “lowers the complexity of the spec” it just increases the QoL and adds a new dimension of “Do I want to Fan of Knives here, vs Crimson Tempest to spread bleeds”. Additionally, I think the returned focus on energy pooling is fantastic, as the current way to play Assassination on single-target is incredibly ignorant. The way the pooling is rewarded is also great, as it’s energy that feels good to play with. Good play = more energy = more fun.

Outlaw is in a medium spot overall. I love the return to a more BFA/SL gameplay style rather than the Vanish-centric, Adrenaline Rush-extending playstyle we’ve had for TWW. I also think that the rework to Roll the Bones is a fantastic middle ground between keeping the variant playstyle intact, while also making it significantly easier to understand at first glance. I think baking in the Crackshot effect into Ace Up Your Sleeves is a fantastic choice as well; however, this being a two-pointer node, where the additional talent point improves the amount of combo points refunded, leaves us in a situation where we probably only put one talent point into it. The apex talent also feels great to play with, maybe the duration of the buffs could be extended to help in dungeons but that’s about it negative to say. There are a few issues I have with Outlaw. Firstly, I feel energy is slightly worse than it needs to be. In most gameplay instances, you are fine juggling the energy gains from Adrenaline Rush, Thistle Tea, and Blade Rush; however, when you eventually run out of everything, it does not feel great, even if these moments are few and far between. Second a small amount of agency has been removed from the spec with the removal of Crackshot/UHUH where you can no longer easily move your cooldowns effectively to help with certain points of an encounter. A good example is the last boss of Brackenhide Hollow, where the boss spawns a totem. Originally, Outlaw was terrible at dealing with this, but with Crackshot, the spec could assist when needed. While Outlaw inherently is not a spec tooled to be good at burst damage, I feel something as simple as a talent that reads “You have an additional charge of Adrenaline Rush” could help massively. Third is the overall Capstone power level. While obviously this is a very early alpha stage, it feels like the Capstones are playing it a little bit too safe compared to many other classes. Stuff like Keep it Rolling seems hard to justify with how little impact it has without access to Count the Odds and the new Roll the Bones mechanics. Something as simple as “Extend and +1 stage” could be a good solution. Talents like Hidden Opportunity don’t feel as rewarding to take as they may be intended to. Lastly, Takem By Surprise has gotta go. The talent makes no sense with the removal of Vanish from Restless Blades and the overall shift away design-wise from Stealth in general from the spec.

Lastly, to talk about Subtlety Rogue, this spec needs help badly. Again, obviously, this is Alpha, and the spec still doesn’t even have its apex talents in place, but the decision to tie CDR to Haste needs to be looked at again. While it is true that Subtlety doesn’t like Haste, I feel this problem doesn’t even need solving. In addition, this solution doesn’t do much to solve the problem beyond making hardline breakpoints. Let’s say you need a Shadow Dance/Symbols for midway through an encounter, the only way to effectively do this is to math out “How much Haste I need for a specific encounter,” which I feel is the absolute worst way to handle making a stat good for a spec. The spec also feels exceptionally terrible on PTR because the CDR is tuned so low that the entire rotation is “Symbols + Dance + SecTec + Blades” then hard AFK through backstabbing with barely enough energy to play, until your next Blades because the CDR is not effective enough.

Overall, I am a big fan of the direction of the Rogue changes; however, I’m praying we don’t get forgotten during alpha/beta, which is all too familiar to longtime Rogue players. I think there is a great foundation here to work off of, but some changes for sure need to still be made to iron out Outlaw/Sub.

76 Likes

Hello. Rogue player of 15 years here. Seen lots of changes to the class over the years, but wanted to add my 2 cents.

Assassination Feedback
I was going to add a section about Assassination, but ForeverGuy (the gentleman above me) covered everything I wanted to say quite nicely.

  • I love the direction Assassination is headed in and as much as I love playing around stealth, the changes to Deathstalker’s Mark being applied by Garrote and not requiring re-stealths in dungeons through Crimson Tempest changes are awesome. I sign up for stealthing when I play rogue, my dungeon group does not.
  • Simplifying Assassination as well by changing certain interactions (how Caustic Spatter is applied, optimal time to use Shiv, removal of Sanguine Blades needing to keep energy above 50%, etc.) has drastically lessened the amount of nuisances for Assassination and has made it much more relaxing to play in cases where you needed to manage all these extras.
  • One thing I do want to bring up, and is my biggest frustration with Assassination, is how Deathmark works. Having our major / 2 minute cooldown be applied to the target rather than buffing the player can be very frustrating. If the target dies early or you need to swap targets for CC, it does not feel good. I know there are workarounds to this (use Deathmark on something that will live the full duration, mouseover macros for CC), but if we are working towards removing annoyances I know for me this is one. Things like Kingsbane don’t feel as bad because of the shorter cooldown. Looking at many other specs in the game, I believe Assassination is one of, if not the only spec that still has it’s major / 2 minute cooldown applied to a target instead of buffing the player.

Subtlety Rogue feedback

  • Changing from combo points reducing Secret Technique and Shadow Dance cooldowns to Haste reducing those two & Symbols of Death makes the spec do big damage every ~75 seconds and then Backstab + Rupture/Eviscerate/Black Powder during downtime between major cooldowns. This makes the spec very boring outside of every minute and change. Having haste reduce the cooldowns mentioned could lead to haste breakpoints to make the spec feel fluid / good to play or even end up being fight dependent depending on when you would need those cooldowns. This could add way more complexity to the spec than what is on live servers right now.
    Things on alpha at this time don’t line up nicely with haste: 30s cooldown become ~25s, 45s cooldowns become ~37s with about 20% haste. With our major cooldown being 90s, hasted cooldowns also doesn’t let them line up well with Shadow Blades and will lead to having to decide if you should use a cooldown or hold it to line up with other cooldowns down the line. (Unless there is a certain amount of haste that makes it line up again - hence breakpoint.)
    The feedback loop of combo points reducing our cooldowns felt good and very rewarding when you executed rotations correctly. This also allowed flexibility on when to use cooldowns (group of adds needs bursted down on a boss for example). With haste reducing it, timings become a lot more rigid and this flexibility is lost unless all cooldowns are held for extended periods of time. At this time, I wouldn’t use Shadow Dance outside of Shadow Blades because you want 2 charges of it for your major cooldown.

  • Danse Macabre was changed from a stacking damage increase buff to ‘does damage’ per unique combo point generator / spender while in shadow dance. Danse Macabre has always felt clunky to me because you were encouraged to use a backstab and a Shuriken storm instead of shadowstrike in your shadow dance windows and this added a lot of complexity and extra buttons to press. The talent itself and how it interacts (unique abilities) is the weird part here, whether it does damage or increases damage I feel doesn’t matter as much. I would recommend changing this talent somehow so you’re not encouraged to use backstab / shuriken storm during a Shadow Dance window or replacing it completely if possible.

  • Dark Shadow (passive node) & Symbols of Death changed from both buffing all damage to Dark Shadows buffing Shadowstrike damage and Symbols buffing finisher damage. My suggestion here is to drop Symbols and combine the buffs into one button / talent (Dark Shadows). Shadow Dance (Dark Shadows) and Symbols are generally used together anyway and in a lot of cases, just macro’d together. Symbols has always been a weird extra button since being implemented. With the change of Shadow Dance procing Supercharger combo points now (old Echoing Reprimand anima combo points), Symbols feels like a second Thistle Tea and an extra button that has played a part in adding unnecessary complexity to the spec.

  • The buff to Shadowstrike makes it hit harder than finishers. This feels really weird. The builder damage is usually smaller than finisher damage so you’re encouraged to build and then spend. This could lead to finishers not being used during a Shadow Dance window because you would do more damage by just hitting Shadowstrike. Finishers should always hit harder, especially with how Sub rogue Mastery works where it buffs your finishers. Putting emphasis on Sub rogue finishers through it’s mastery and then having your builder hit harder does not line up.

I recognize we are still missing Apex & Hero talents for Subtlety rogue, but these are my thoughts thus far.

I do not play Outlaw much and haven’t touched the spec since Dragonflight so I will leave that in the capable hands of our Outlaw connoisseurs.

24 Likes

In regards to Assassinations apex talents waiting 5-7 seconds (based on cp spent) for envenom to fall off for the energy recharge to kick in is entirely too long. You can nearly recharge to full energy in that time before taking advantage of a full 100% bonus from chaining enough envenoms. This is not exciting or compelling by any means. You easily find times you can exceed well beyond the 5 envenoms required to hit the 100% bonus without ever having to consider pooling resources. However energy regen ultimately is tuned can alter this greatly but regardless waiting for up to 7 seconds to activate this talent seems kind of useless.

9 Likes

So is there a reason the class tree changes from oct 8th never happened for 5+ weeks?

6 Likes

Played the beta for a bit have done a few dungeons, and i’m starting to wonder if “Stealth” is really needed. I understand “Ambush” is a 100% bunus damage mutilate. “Garrote” can be used in stealth and out. “Pickpocket” is useless. “Distract” basically useless. “Shroud of Concealment” is useful to skip portions of dungeon, but it could be used if just out of combat. Been a rogue for a few years and i’m just realizing that this skill is becoming less and less valuable.

2 Likes

Hello,
Assassination rogue veteran player for 16 years straight, I want to talk about changes I’ve tested on Beta version 64339.

First I will talk about my experience at level 80, since we don’t have access to Apex talents yet, then I will come back to those talents later on.

Class Talent tree:

  • Class talent tree hasn’t received any significant changes, although there are some new talents added few weeks ago and we are still waiting to see them implemented, so I will not talk about them for now. Overall class tree looks fine, if we consider the Shadowheart “placeholder” (ignored for 2 years!!) will be replaced in the future build. The change to Cold Blood was somewhat expected and it is not a bad change, although little weak for a capstone talent, it could be a bit better if you add some additional effect to it, rather than just flat 10% crit increase.
  • The major objection I have in the class tree is against “Thistle Tea” capstone. This throw-back talent is bad in many ways. First one, its auto proc and you cannot control it. The second one, its too weak for a capstone, doesn’t take the fact that we have 250 energy and not 100, it serves more like a bandaid for a bad design of energy regen and it just simply doesn’t fit for the current game. I would rather see this talent completely gone and replaced by more fitting Relentless strikes passive as this capstone is almost exlusively used only by the Assassination spec.
  • Recuperator talent is bugged for 4 years!! already as it will always stop working in specific scenarios, and deserves complete overhaul or replacement.
  • Leeching poison should deserve some buffs as this talent is very weak. (Suggestion - Leeching poison also increases healing taken by 10%).
  • Stillshroud talent is another “never pick” talent, that has zero value for the gameplay and should be replaced.

Spec Talent tree:

  • Assassination tree has received many new changes and talent placements, but there are still few flaws I want to talk about, so lets take it step by step.
  • Deadly Poison - this talent is core part of the Assassination spec that is used in almost every scenario except PvP, where it is outperformed by Wound poison in every aspects, it is a complete waste of a talent point for no reason and because of this, Deadly poison should be made baseline for Assassination!
  • Venomous Wounds - this is another important must have talent, which I will talk about later on. What I don’t like is its current position in the tree. Leveling Assassination rogue in the last few expansions is extreme pain and boredom and one of the reasons is energy starving. If anything else, Venomous Wounds should be put at the very top of the tree, as it is core functionality of the spec, replacing Deadly Poison’s position which should be baseline at this point.
  • Doomblade - the only purpose i see for this, is the Lethal Dose talent, apart from it, its basically unimpactful and pointless talent in the tree. Also this talent should be part of Venomous Wounds and refund energy.
  • Internal Bleeding - Same as Doomblade, all bleed abilities should be part of Venomous Wounds with no exception to Internal Bleeding.
  • Lethal Dose - This talent was very important during DF and TWW providing minor damage boost, but after Deathmark change and removal of Serrated Bone Spike, this talent now falls behind and its rather underperforming. (suggestion - increase its damage to atleast 5%.)
  • Amplifying Poison - the position of this talent right now doesn’t make sense and should be moved somewhere else, as it locks you from picking up Avulsion. Also there are two scenarios in which you never want to pick this talent - Mythic+ dungeons and PvP, which makes it another wasted talent slot.(suggestion - move it aside of the tree as optional, or just swap its position with Avulsion.
  • Dashing Scoundrel - For a capstone, this talent is very weak and there absolutely no reason to pick this over Kingsbane, DTB or Sudden Demise. (For a suggestion here, Assassination rogue lacks of a proper execute ability, that could replace Mutilate spam during execution phases and for that reason I see two similar options: replace it with old “Dispatch” execute ability which will cost 30 energy and be usable only during execute phase. The second option is to use Ambush for the same purpose as this ability serves no other purpose in the spellbok. Ambush now deals nature damage, can be used without stealth at or below 35% of target’s health, costs 30 energy and has a chance to proc Blindside. This change would fit perfectly into the left side of the tree, synergizing with Blindside, Systemic Failure and Zoldyck, while also providing a strong option as a capstone talent.
  • Deathmark - What I still hate about this talent, its the only burst cooldown in the game, that forces you to go one target. In PvP it has also tons of counterplay in forms of short cd dispels and racials. Combining this with its very long cooldown make this ability one if not the worst spells in the game. (suggestion - make this talent undispellable and unable to be dodged or parried.)

Fatebound Talents:

  • Fatebound received many significant QoL changes in Midnight, while it also removes its randomness, it is clearly a go to hero talents for Midnight.
  • The only objection i have against Fatebound talents is the lack of defensive options. Compared with Deathstalker’s damage reduction to both CoS and Evasion, Fatebound provides only very weak heal which I believe must get some tuning prior to release, and Tempted Fate which is again a random chance to minor absorb 10% of damage taken. There is no synergy or direct impact with rogue’s core abilities which I found weird. (suggestion - replace chosen’s revelry with talent that reduces cooldown on Cloak of Shadows and / or Evasion by 15-30 seconds.)
  • Another thing I don’t understand is why Hand of Fate still deals “Cosmic Damage” instead of Nature or Shadow, which would make more sense from a fantasy standpoint.

Deathstalker Talents:

  • Now this is one of the biggest mess I’ve ever seen since its introduction in TWW. While in Midnight Deathstalker’s mark is finally available out of stealth through garrote, (After two years of complaints asking for this!!) the whole talent tree lacks creativity or synergy with any of the rogue abilities. Apart from flat rupture damage increase, there are also three different talents for some reason, that are only affecting only Fan of Knives and has absolutely no value or impact for Single target.
  • Unshakeable Drive - This talent that was formerly part of Deathstalker’s mark now replaces Fatal Intend, which was also very underperfoming, should consider that both mutilate and ambush are not a heavy hitters and only generators, and should provide way more damage increase.
  • Shroud of Night is another placeholder that is never picked, due to absolutely no value for any content. Increasing duration by 5 seconds, for a 6 minutes cooldown, that is almost never used, due to eyesights and stealth detection changes in dungeons and restrictions for rated PvP. It is just another waste of a talent spot and deserves to be replaced by something more impactful for a rogue class. (suggestion - change Shroud of Night to reduce cooldown of Vanish by 15 seconds.)
  • Singular Focus - this talent, while sadly still one of the strongest in the tree is still bugged and keeps you in combat forever, breaks your stealth, breaks your vanish, and even gives you combat when you die and release, in PvP it also breaks crowd control because it doesn’t ignore controlled targets and has unlimited range. Despite numerous bug reports and complaints over the years of TWW, this is still not changed. My suggestion ? - Wake up and fix this talent for sake of the players that are paying your salary.

Fatebound continues to be a go to spec for Raids, PvP and possibly Mythic+ in Midnight, While Deathstalker keeps to be a miserable failure of a talent tree, that should deserve overhaul or complete rework.

Assasination gameplay at level 80:

  • Since we cannot test Apex talents yet, which i believe will have a great impact on the class itself, I want to share my current impressions about Assassination gameplay without them.
  • Rotation - The major change in Midnight is the removal of need to restealth in able to spread your bleeds, which is for sure one of the greatest changes done to the spec. Another thing is that Shiv is no longer part of the rotation and again serves as the utility button, which is also a welcoming change. On the other side, the value of damage increase Shiv has provided should be compensated elsewhere, so I hope there will be more damage tuning before this goes to Live. I have also concerns about Ambush and its usefulness, since its no longer needed for Deathstalker. I personally think it would be great idea if we return Ambush as our old execution ability the “Old Dispatch” as I talked about earlier in my talents review.
  • Energy Regeneration - First thing I want to say, I’m not a fan of energy pooling as this gameplay throw-back should stay in the classic wow in my opinion. In the past, every class had to perform some form of resource management, but thats no longer true, so why assassination rogue should be the only one of the 38 specs to still have this form of handicap ?? While playing a class, what you want from it is to feel good to play, have fun with it of course do a good damage. The current state of Assassination at level 80 on Beta doesn’t give me any of that feelings. I have all the energy talents possible and once I’m out of Thistle tea, there comes the 3-4 seconds of downtime we all know from TWW on single target. The insane nerfs to Venomous Wounds, make the class energy starved even worse than before and the new Motivated Murderer talent doesn’t compensate it at all. Another thing is that in TWW you’re never starved of energy during AOE fight. But in Midnight you starve almost instantly. Again thanks to nerfs to Venomous Wounds, making the multibleed for energy having absolutely no value. I have 22% haste and it makes nearly no difference. What I understand that you want us to play around Apex talents to pool energy for Envenom and get energy regen from this gameplay. But here is the flaw: What if I don’t pick Apex talents ? Does it means my class is not playable without it ?
  • The Apex talents Flaw - I know there is like zero reasons to not pick those talents, but what if i do ? The class will just not work without it. You will be energy starved forever, your damage will suck, and the class will not be fun to play. Why instead of forcing us to play around pooling energy, why not give us the option to choose whether we want to play pooling minigame or not ? If the whole Assassination spec is designed to work only around Implacable talent, why it is so down in the tree or even optional ? Apex talents should be strong addition to your toolkit, but at the same time it shouldn’t be a mandatory in a way, that without them the class just doesn’t work. Neither Subtlety nor Outlaw has this issue with Apex talents and i believe other classes also.
  • Final Suggestion - I have one final suggestion related to gameplay and energy management, first thing is that Venomous Wounds needs to be drastically buffed. Its impact on AOE is undeniable and with its current state, the energy returns are simply not enough to keep the combat flow. Second thing was suggested earlier in my talents review and that is return of Relentless Strikes as replacement for Thistle Tea back to the assassination spec. With this talent, the spec should still work even without Implacable.

Final Thoughs:

Since Shadowlands I don’t have a strong expectations, that another expansion will fix rogue class problems, but I never gave up my hope, that one day, I will have fun playing rogue again.

7 Likes

( Not the famous whispyr choose this name before I knew of him, been annoying now, blizz give me free name change :P? )

Considering I can’t stay connected to the beta with out getting a memory error for longer then 5 minutes, I will talk about a few things I can talk about before trying it. My big gripe is Rogue needs an actual, proper modern redesign. It suffers from old gameplay and has really needed a proper polish for years and years now. (To be fair, so do ferals) .

The problem with Rogue is that it doesn’t feel as great rotation-wise, build combo, spend combo. Kinda meh. You can fix this by improving the visual effects, so instead of mechanically being rewarding it can be visually rewarding.

REMOVE NO-VALUE BUTTONS:

These are buttons that do not add any direct value (Fun) to the class. They are there to be basically filler to increase numbers and offer the user no satisifcation in using them and should be removed from all classes. They do not offer a cool visual, satisfying mechanic or any positive feedback.

Thistle Tea:
Just because it has roots to the old rogue doesnt mean its good to keep around, bake this into something so its automatic. You gain no fun value by pressing this and because its even a option to press it you are pushing people to be optimized for it. You can optimize the fun out of things by giving people options.

Symbols of Death:
Again, this button adds no actual value to the game play. It is not fun and its micro management, its FILLER.

Assassination:

Crimson Temptest:
This is an amazing change; tab targeting is an unnecessarily tedious mechanic from a different age of gaming. I feel all tab targeting should be removed from the game.

DeathMark:
This really suffers from combo points of old, if you put it on the wrong target, it REALLY messes you up. It needs to be easily transferable or on the character or something but this is an outdated design point at this point.

Hero Classes:
Add some visuals, spice it up; these don’t really add to the ninja, assassin, pirate themes like a lot of other classes; they are by far some of the most yawn inducing hero class talents I can think of. Can’t think of cool mechanics, then DO VISUALS.

Outlaw:

Blade Rush:
Honestly, I was excited when this talent came out years ago. But I think it needs to have its ranged increased to be on par with warriors charge, and its visual is really kinda wonky. I think both of these aspects could be spiced up and possibly add a lot of fun and interesting twist to the class.

Shadow:

5 Likes

Vibes:

Outlaw was more fun when I was shooting Between the Eyes 4-5 times in a row.

8 Likes

It is automatic. It automatically activates at 30 energy. Despite that, I actually have a lot of beef with Thistle Tea.

  • It was fine as a cheesy item in Classic – but it’s an absolutely horrible solution to alleviating energy / resource problems.

  • It basically punishes you for playing aggressively on trash when it activates on it’s own
 leaving you with no charges on bosses.

  • It makes your energy situation feel inconsistent - because when it’s available to go off, you have plenty of energy. But then when it isn’t you feel like you’re starving.. and because it’s automatic it just adds this inconsistent feeling to the spec.

  • It’s also just a bandaid solution to not having enough energy regen.

They need to just throw this skill in the incinerator
 and rethink how they’re handling energy classes. We need more actual passive energy regen, or we need something to do while waiting for energy
 cause not being able to do anything doesn’t feel good
 and if they want people to not just spam abilities – they need to add some UI elements and rewards for doing that – not just a punishment for not doing it.

They could make your abilities do more damage the more energy you have or something.. and then make the energy bar change color from green to red depending on how much energy you have. Something. Anything
 but just standing around waiting for energy feels bad – and it’s even worse when sometimes a passive thing just goes off giving you more energy.. but it isn’t consistent.. so when it doesn’t go off you feel like you’re starving.

At least when Thistle Tea was only a manual cast you could always make sure you had Thistle tea for when you really needed it and weren’t basically forbidden from using all of your energy for fear of auto triggering Thistle Tea. Bleh.

On some positive news – I do really like the Crimson Tempest rework. I’d like if Crimson Tempest could just replace FoK entirely and benefit from all talents that benefit it though. I absolutely do not want to have both on my bar since they’re both generators now.

4 Likes

Outlaw in name only.

Basic rotation, easy to play, not nearly as fun as the name implies. I imagine it picks up at max level with apex talents and the first tier set 4 piece unlocked. Leveling up with it is okay, nothing too exciting.

I can’t really think of anything great or bad about the spec. It’s like driving a stock Honda Civic. You know what you’re getting.

I have yet to find the Specs “HOLY 5H17” moment.

Overall, Outlaw is in a good starting place.

2 Likes

I thought they replaced FoK with crimson guess i misread, if FoK is still in the game, it needs a visual rework that animation is so old it can drink.

4 Likes

Yeah.. FoK costs 35 energy, and Crimson Tempest costs 60
 I can cast them both.

EDIT:

Now that I’ve spent some proper time digging into this more – I think I’m starting to understand a bit better some of the inconsistency I am feeling while playing Assassination.

Garrote is basically the driving factor for controlling Deathstalkers Mark.

  • Because of this – there are awkward moments where you end up re-applying Garrote to refresh Deathstalkers Mark outside of the pandemic window for Garrote.. which feels like we’re basically adding jank into the rotation.. because now Garrote isn’t really about Garrote.
  • Another problem with Deathstalker’s Mark – is not being able to transfer it to another target without killing the first target, using all of the charges, or the debuff expiring (unless I’m missing something.)
    • This is just recreating the same problem that was solved when combo points were shifted on to the rogue. It makes target swaps punishing.
    • This is annoying given that a large damage buff and some of our energy regen is wrapped up in the consumption of Deathstalker’s Mark through Darkest Night and Lingering Darkness.
  • Side Note: Symbolic Victory (The other choice node against Lingering Darkness) gives 18% Envenom Damage for 2 Envenom’s after Kingsbane
 Envenom is Nature Damage. Lingering Darkness is 30% Nature Damage for consuming Deathstalker’s Mark.. for 30 seconds. Maybe this is a PvP thing, but Lingering Darkness seems radically superior?
  • Also there doesn’t seem to be a buff for Lingering Darkness. So there is absolutely no UI presence for this happening.

Implacable (One of the new Apex talents) is where another chunk of energy regen is coming from.

  • This introduces another minigame/rotational loop to cycle dumping as many Envenom’s as possible, for the payout of energy regen after your burst window.
  • This means if you’ve swapped targets and are unable to capitalize on Darkest night, because Deathstalkers Mark is on a different target, you’re missing on vital energy return to keep the loop going.
  • This also incentivizes you to use Fan of Knives instead of Crimson Tempest to generate combo points because it’s cheaper in AOE situations – which feels a bit like a wrench in the cohesiveness of the spec
 because you also want to spread your bleeds around.

And I think that is where the inconsistency is starting to kick in
 because we very much need to pay attention to which mob has Deathstalker’s Mark on it in order to proc Darkest Night for the energy/damage buff
 but trash mobs aren’t target dummies.. and you’re not always going to be on the same target you started on because things move
 and you can easily end up burning through all of your Thistle tea stacks on accident trying to keep up with the pace of your group.

I think if the goal is to make it so that people can always tell what they’re supposed to do next – I think we’re kinda straying from that path
 because the difference in a rogue who is optimizing Deathstalker’s Mark and Implacable is going to be radically different from someone just trying to build combo points as fast as they can, spend them and keep bleeds up.

Which seems counter to the entire vibe of the skill pruning and simplifying rotations.

Also the more I dig into this, the more I’m finding that the new UI tools in game right now to track all of these buffs/debuffs are leaving a lot to be desired in terms of customization
 things that I 100% would want Weak Auras for
 which again – feels like is the opposite of what the goal of Midnight was.

Suggestions:

  • Maybe make Deathstalker’s Mark a buff on the rogue to help with swapping targets so people aren’t missing out on free damage/energy regen.
    • I don’t want to have to participate in the degeneracy of not being able to use Garrote on a target because I’m going to want my Deathstalker’s Mark on a different target – that would feel super bad.
  • Make Crimson Tempest just replace FoK, and retune some of the energy costs around that.
  • Rethink Thistle Tea being cast automatically, or removing it entirely and moving that energy economy passively into the kit somewhere.

Another side note:

  • The Highlight assist tool is still suggesting that you use Shiv as a damage buff. It’s not suggesting that you use Garrote to reapply Deathstalker’s mark after it expires, there is a ton wrong with this thing.
  • If we’re losing the ability to run addons like Hekili or Weak Auras, and the rotation is more complicated than “Build, Spend, Keep up DoTs.” then it is going to put a lot of stress on this highlight feature being effective
 and it isn’t going to be effective if it needs to be clairvoyant to know when you’re going to pool energy for a burst window
 or when not to use Garrote because you’ll need to change targets before you can use all of the Deathstalker’s Mark charges.

I dunno – I’m not a game dev, and I’m not a super sweaty player. I could be missing some things so take all this with a grain of salt. Hopefully it’s useful insight into the mind of a regular person and not some guy writing WoWhead articles.

1 Like

I agree with your whole post

Spoilers it won’t get better with the apex or endgame gear. Hitting 81 is easy as just getting to Silvermoon and you have almost all of your endgame stats from 80 and the only point in apex that matters for this. Energy is bad but I mean what did anyone think was going to to happen gutting every single energy talent? Realz did the same thing in dragonflight beta energy was good then he gutted it just to end up buffing later mid exp. Also the idea of balancing how the spec feels (Dmg balance sure) around an 80+ talent no wonder no one plays this class.

Many things could be fixed if realz stops rp’ing with the class. Dealthstalker’s mark make it a buff fixes everything with it. He made it work off garrote but actually made the core issue with worse as you can’t move it at all.

Can’t make backstab non positional because it’s called backstab another example. It’s called deathmark so it has to mark the target couldn’t be buff etc. And the list goes on and on.

Crimson Tempest needs to cost less or dot more mobs at once, look any other dot class it’s always 6-8 mobs with a short cd. Energy is our cd, 60 is a lot for 2 dots.

Also for anyone who doesn’t know Realz is the dev that works on rogue and dh. Which is probably why the new dh spec needs to be 90 and get all the apex talents to make it’s spec try to feel right.

4 Likes

In regards to outlaw rogue. I love the direction of the talents so far, not having to vanish is great.

The newest capstone talent “preparation “ doesn’t feel that impactful to play and cd isn’t reduced by our CDR mechanics wrestles blades. - if it did it would be extremely strong, but some adjustments could be made to prep to make it a viable choice. Maybe make it so it’s a passive node and gives us another charge of AR.

I also think our energy regen is a tad bit slow. Might feel better with haste.

4 Likes

Class divergence:

One huge problem with rogue is all the specs feel same but with a little twist. Look at hunter for instance it has three kinds of very different play styles. Despite being like rogue. A pure dps spec.

Assassination:

Honestly this can remain how it is

Outlaw:

Lean more into the pirate, hell with blade rush as a sudo charge remove combo points and make it play more like a warrior and monk mix with a strong pirate theme.

Sub:

Honestly I think the theme here is ninja? Lean into that more, change the animations to be more ninja like, really set it apart. Maybe add some range mechanics perhaps more shadow clone play, Do more so it doesn’t feel like a recolor of assassination.

5 Likes

Subtlety:

Can someone explain why Symbols of Death and Shadow Dance are different buttons. I am coming back to rogue from BFA, but I have been playing the game for 20+ years. I still can’t figure out why these are separated. Is it because of PvP? I want to state I am no Subtlety God, and I have been using google AI to try to figure out how the rotation is played. Are people just macroing these two abilities together. I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to press them back to back. I think what is also throwing me off is one 25 vs 30 seconds and the fact that they have different charges. Also I think you should remove rupture and turn it into some type of shadow clone play. Maybe it summons Ninjas that ST/AOE or maybe a new ability called Shuriken Nado that spreads Rupture on nearby mobs like Assassination. I am still not sure if I like Rupture on Sub.

Edit: Yeah I think maybe just remove Rupture. Rupture is a DoT, I feel like this class doesn’t do DoTs. Black Powder isn’t a dot, Secret Tech isn’t a dot. Unless its a PvP thing and your trying to keep enemies in combat or something. I feel like Assassination got rid of the additional AOE so now its just rupture spread. Can we get the same kind of thing with Sub.

im not going to put full feedback until im max level but rn

elephant in the room

  1. grapple speed should come back in some form in the talent tree or baseline, grapple feels bad without it

  2. preperation should give you charges instead of reseting the cd of specific abilities. giving a charge to AR and BTE would be enough to make it a proper capstone with a great deal of strength. rn its the weakest 4min cd in the game if not the only 4min cd in the game.

2 Likes