For starters, they can get rid of the idea that “stealth” makes a rotation practical and enjoyable. It’s fine for an opener or situational cool down. But not as something you have weave into a combat rotation.
10 Likes
Maybe im just reading this wrong (or my head-voice is just sounding antagonistic today), but it feels like you are annoyed with my posts, when I agree with you.
Stealth in the rotation is bad. We agree.
Stealth needs to be regulated to openers and situational uses rather than part of the rotation. We agree.
Just removing the stealth windows with no proper replacement or re-work is still a bad path to take when the trees currently lean so heavily into it. Do we agree on this?
Yes, I agree with you that we need to be less-reliant on stealth.
5 Likes
This is a very strange beta, Not working on or talking to rogues is nothing new. And new talents being bad or boring is also nothing new. But new talent tree’s not even being functional on a mechanical lvl (deathstalker) is something else. Talents staying bugged for so long while things need to be tested and not fixed build after build with the prepatch coming up in a month very very strange even for blizzard.
Normally when they hit the phase of we aren’t doing anything or saying anything to rogues which is normally 2-3 builds in alpha’s things normally work, maybe be bad or boring but they work and what bugs there are normally minor.
15 Likes
all i see in beta is warlocks , warriors , ww monks , bm hunters, mages,druids and a few pallys and evos no rogues , when I see 1 they lost on duels and do no damage been like that since alpha ,. we are so close to release and still nothing.
8 Likes
input for deathstalker, make the ambush procs from blindside apply marks and i think you save the tree so much lol
also double vanish charge is not good for pvp usage and also limits pve burst so this is a net nerf for assa players on both fronts if they decide to play deathstalker. also feels like this forces every competitive assa pvper to stay or change NE because meld becomes even more important for the spec.
i dont want to be forced into fatebound if the core mechanic for deathstalker makes for a bad experience pvp wise. its sad because the defensive talent deathstalker has makes it very attractive for pvp
2 Likes
That would further increase the impossibly of proccing darkest night, as it is implemented, that’s a non starter
1 Like
Deathstalker’s design is bad for pve and pvp it’s just a terrible tree overall that doesn’t really work. It was made in 5mins so all spec’s would have hero talents and never touched again lol.
You don’t want more ambush uses with it see what happens with sub. The easiest bandaid fix to this spec would be all ambush/shadowstrikes and mut/backstab’s proc mark if it’s not already on the target and if it’s already there mark doesn’t proc. And if you have darkest night proc it doesn’t proc mark also doesn’t proc.
Even if what I said happened it still be a pretty bad spec but at least it would function somewhat for pve and pvp.
5 Likes
Assassination rogue:
Bring Sepsis in the same node as bone-spike as a choice.
I’d like Bone Spike to be toggled on/off. Getting rid of button bloat is great but i’d rather give a choice for that. Currently implementation of bone-spike removes possibility to apply bleeds onto sapped/blinded target in PvP without removing the sap/blind. As soon as you apply rupture - bone spike removes the CC before you apply Cheap Shot from Subterfuge.
DeathStalker is a mess, but my concern is in the talent node “Corrupt the blood” that is bugged as 2-set piece of Dragonflight season 2 for assassination.
As soon as you apply rupture - it deals damage. (Same problem for me as Bone spike previously mentioned. It removes CC as soon as rupture is used.) But that’s not the main case.
You are stuck in combat while Corrupt the Blood is on the enemy. Plus if you use vanish - as soon as it ticks you are removed from the stealth. (2-set piece problem that was not fixed during DF for the whole season.)
Possible fix for “Corrupt the blood” - make it deal its damage and apply stack only when rupture deals damage. Remove combat application from its damage. Stop its damage to remove rogue from stealth.
2 Likes
Been a while since i PvP, but Rupture has always removed Blind and other disorients from my memory.
You target sapped/blinded target. If you stay parallel to the target and look in a specific angle (~90 degree from the target), you may apply your bleeds (garrote/rupture/sepsis) without breaking any form of CC that lasts till getting hit. This is caused by you not auto-attacking the target as soon as you press your spells. Kinda difficult to explain Currently assassination rogue can sap/blind, go into Shadow dance (if blind used) and garrote-rupture-cheap shot without breaking CC. (If <5% haste) your bleeds won’t “Wake up” the enemy as their ticks will start about ~2-2.5 seconds after applying. That’s a trick you can practice on Boars in durotar/elwynn for example. If you did everything right - they live through applications of garrote+rupture. Currently in Beta aforementioned spells/talents break this “skill” that people may use to pre-bleed and gain an advantage by dealing damage instantly as rupture is being applied.
2 Likes
We are in agreement. I’m just emphasizing the issue.
4 Likes
@Devs regarding stealth rotation for Assassination
If you insist on stealth being a core element of the rotation, I suggest the following:
• Change Without a Trace to reduce the Vanish cool down to 1 minute or less. Even with two charges, Vanish is still a 2 minute CD and really doesn’t help the spec.
• Subterfuge: The spec only needs one rank for 3 seconds. Six seconds is redundant for talents like Improved Garrote and Indiscriminate Carnage. A PvP talent adding the 2nd rank makes more sense. In addition, move Subterfuge back to the top of the tree where it is more easily accessible at lower levels. I suggest moving Subterfuge to the choice node with Tricks and Blackjack. Move this node to Rushed Setup. Remove Rushed Setup, it’s not needed. This leaves an open spot on the 9th row that can be used for something - more interesting.
• Regarding Sanguine Blades. I don’t like the 50% threshold. The spec plays much faster than previous expansions. Maintaining 50% energy is a challenge and feels cumbersome.
3 Likes
I have been saying this about Outlaw on the WoW forums and on Discord for nearly a year. The devs absolutely do not agree with this, as evidenced by their last rework making the spec even more dependent upon stealth, even making Vanish an offensive part of the rotation. It’s absolutely backwards from the original intent of the spec, as evidenced by Blizzard’s LITERAL description of the spec on their own website:
“A ruthless fugitive who uses agility and guile to stand toe-to-toe with enemies.”
Over the course of Dragonflight the devs have gone further and further astray from the core fantasy themes of the spec in favor of copy/pasting subtlety gameplay into Outlaw, which is like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole, and creates this schizophrenic spec that can’t decide whether it’s a true highwayman who goes toe to toe using guile and cunning, or just a vanish-bot with some stealth gimmicks hastily tacked on.
Stealth should absolutely be a part of the rogue toolkit for each spec, but it should not be a central feature of the outlaw rotation. This stealth-centric concept that the devs lazily slapped on Outlaw during Dragonflight does a disservice to the theme and spirit of the spec, and diminishes not only the core fantasy but also greatly dilutes everything that makes the Subtlety spec special.
There are numerous examples of rogues in history, literature, film, TV, and games who do not rely on stealth as their core mechanic and from which the devs can creatively draw from. There is no reason I can see why this dramatic change to the Outlaw spec is anything but outright creative laziness fueled by a lack of imagination.
16 Likes
100% agree. Now that we’ve had 1 or 2 tiers with this notion of a stealth rotation, it’s obvious the Devs missed the mark with it.
I particularly hate what it has done to Assassination. What was once a simple, smooth rotation with a nice flow to it, is now a convoluted mess of watching timers and cool downs.
TWW is adding more nonsense with its hero talents. Especially with the way Deathstalker has to manage Deathstalker’s Mark and Darkest Night.
9 Likes
Nah bro dont come in here ruining the one good change they implemented. I want those extra 3 seconds for those moments the tanks pulls something that auto exits your stealth.
Once again, no. It may be weaker for Sin and Sub but Outlaw still gets power from it, and if the Devs gave a singular care about rogues they could add stuff to the other spec trees that would make it worthwhile.
Tanks are giving you time to restealth? Nice. Devs could add the extra rank to the spec trees.
My main complaint is having to spend the 2nd talent point on something I don’t really benefit from just to get Without a Trace.
I also feel that Subterfuge is a very valuable ability that players would benefit from during the leveling process. Putting it at the bottom of the tree serves no purpose. If the Devs insist on a stealth rotation, these stealth abilities should be accessible earlier during leveling. They shouldn’t be at the bottom, forcing you down a particular path.
4 Likes
I may have limited experience with the class, but I am going to echo what has been said by some others.
I don’t believe stealth should be a core rotational aspect of assassination or outlaw.
Outlaw is supposed to be the swashbuckling more durable specialization
Assassination is supposed to be bleed or poison oriented.
Subtlety is supposed to weave attacked imbued with shadow damage from the shadows.
Read the descriptions of the class when you change the specialization in the tab.
Right now, there is awkwardness that could easily be avoided. Stealth should be relegated to crowd control aspects only for Assassination and Outlaw, not rotational aspects for damage.
Assassination:
There is also some ability bloat. Don’t care for Shiv being part of that for assassination. Rather they just bake that into crimson tempest or indiscriminate carnage as a talent node, so their use speeds up poison damage on all targets affected by such.
Anything mentioning stealth should just be removed from the tree. Ambush Can remain really only to get that initial combo pop from pack to pack and that is it, but rest of stealth ability perform same as when not in stealth.
Main Tree
Removing echoing reprimand. More bloat.
Hero Talent
Fate-bound no comment other than some tuning.
Deathstalker remove the stealth requirement.
Trickster no comment other than some tuning and don’t tie unseen blade to any defensive skills.
Outlaw no comment other than tuning.
Subtlety no comment other than tuning.
However, will say I don’t think there is a world where you should ever have to take Flagellation and Gore-maw or rather even have it as an option. Make it a choice node between them.
Make it a choice node between killing spree and blade rush.
Look at energy regen for all specializations.
5 Likes
I’ll skip a rant on how Trickster, Deathstalker and Fatebound are just very difficult to care about class fantasies.
None of these trees have noticeable visuals.
No one is ever going to say “Just had a trickster / fatebound / deathstalker in my group” the way they might if they had a Diabolist, Sunfury, Mountain Thane, Rider of the Apocalypse, or a Herald of the Sun.
Are you really “heroic” if no one can tell? As a player this is like being given 3 different brands of vanilla ice cream.
12 Likes
I play outlaw, mostly arenas though I’ve done a bit of mythic+ before as well. My testing on beta has been entirely in pvp - duels, skirmishes, BGs, and solo shuffle.
The Good Stuff
While I did enjoy the rework we received in the 10.2 patch, I am also happy to see outlaw moving a bit away from perma ADR and crackshot being far too dominant in our overall damage profile (I think it’s around 1/4 to 1/3 of our damage on live?). Less ADR uptime and more consistent damage that isn’t tied to a stealth window are both very healthy changes for outlaw going forward.
Ever since crackshot was nerfed in pvp during S4 the spec has been gutted and outlaw representation across all pvp brackets is now completely dead. As of the time of this post, I’m #6 outlaw in NA in 2v2 at 2222 rating and #37 outlaw in solo shuffle at 2170. These are among the lowest ratings at these placements of any dps spec in pvp currently. All due to one nerf to crackshot. So moving away from being “all in” on crackshot is a very welcome change at this point, it clearly has too much influence and power in the live version of the game.
The Bad Stuff
ACROBATIC. STRIKES.
Wow, does it feel horrible to not have extra melee range. I understand this decision had absolutely nothing to do with rogue itself, and was instead made for the game as a whole, as every melee lost their extra range (except ret, of course). But have we not considered why outlaw was the first spec to get this extra melee range in the first place?
Outlaw is by far the most punished by downtime. We lose out not only on damage in the moment (and with no dots either to at least be doing some damage while we can’t connect), but we also lose future damage by not being able to farm more CDR. Blade flurry also feels much less functional, because you still must hit your main target to be able to trigger a flurry. So the increased range on blade flurry doesn’t really solve the problem. In solo shuffle I was struggling to flurry damage onto multiple targets compared to live, because I can’t really position myself between two targets, I must be so close to my main target to hit it at all. In BGs, it was impossible to do anything. My damage was bottom every game because I just can’t connect. Every micro CC or root that prevents me from hitting my main target hurts so much more than it ever did. I can only imagine how bad the range loss must feel in dungeons when trying to dodge mechanics.
Aside from acrobatic strikes, the other biggest issue is dps variance. Still nothing has been done to address proc droughts. In fact, this problem is worse now than ever because we lost weaponmaster to make room for the S3/4 2-set bonus, and have not gotten it back in TWW. In pvp this is mitigated a bit by having Enduring Brawler, but even there it’s very frustrating to stun someone and then get 5 sinister strikes in a row and do 0 damage. Baseline opportunity proc chance is far too low and makes the spec feel bad to play.
Fatebound
I actually like this hero tree. Coin flipping isn’t the most exciting mechanic, but it’s a fairly passive tree that has some nice QoL to make outlaw feel a bit better to play. In particular, the 5% opportunity proc chance feels very necessary, double grappling hook is the most fun thing outlaw has gotten in TWW, and the tails coin flip is magic damage, which at least adds some armor penetration back to outlaw, something that is sorely needed in pvp.
The capstone is underwhelming and should be replaced. Making it stronger would just feel bad because of the RNG aspect. Just toss it in the bin and put something else in its place.
Trickster
This tree feels so awkward. I love Killing Spree, but it is just so outdated now. Losing control of your character every 30-45 seconds feels bad and interrupts the pacing of the spec. Also the camera jumping around is disorienting.
Coup de Grace adds to this by locking your actions for 2 seconds seemingly arbitrarily. Not sure if this is a bug or intended, but it makes the capstone for trickster feel more like a detriment than anything else. My reward for building up stacks with unseen blade is to be unable to play my spec for 2 seconds? Even worse in that it appears to be bugged and do no damage at all, at least in pvp. It’s not even appearing in details, nor does it seem to interact with CDR at all.
Compared to Fatebound, there’s no real QoL here. Trickster makes outlaw feel less smooth to play. It actively fights against you as you play it. Not a fan of this tree at all in its current state.
Suggested Changes
- Please consider bringing back acrobatic strikes for outlaw, it’s a huge downgrade to play without it
- Increase base Opportunity proc chance back to what it was pre 10.2 rework
- Shadowheart as a new talent is super underwhelming. Buff or replace it
- Sleight of Hand has somehow survived a rework and a new expansion launch despite being picked by no one ever. I highly suggest replacing this talent with some version of our 4 set bonus from S3/4, which is very much loved by outlaw players and makes RTB feel much better to use
- Rework Killing Spree. Either have it not lock you out of your rotation like SecTec, or at least give it the benefits of bladestorm (immune to CC, can still press defensives, etc.). And fix the camera issues
- Replace Fatebound capstone with something else
- Remove loss of character control from Coup de Grace
- Class tree can still use some cleaning up. Remove Cold Blood, remove tea and buff energy for all 3 rogue specs, maybe remove ER too
- I like that we have a reason to want haste again, but still dislike the implementation of this being to nerf ADR GCD and then give it back through haste. It just makes the spec less consistent as your GCD varies with haste, so early gearing and leveling are going to throw off your GCD timings
TLDR - Fatebound feels pretty good but could still use some changes, Trickster feels terrible because Killing Spree is outdated and between that and Coup de Grace there are too many things that lock you out of your abilities and are disruptive to your rotation. Shifting power out of crackshot and ADR is good. DPS variance is too high; increase base Opportunity proc chance and reintroduce S3/4 4-set bonus for RTB to improve buff uptime. GIVE BACK ACROBATIC STRIKES PLEASE.
7 Likes
Thing is you sort of already have Acrobatic Strikes now.
The reason Blizzard removed all the talent that increase melee range for the various melee dps is because they increased the base default melee range for everyone (and it is noticeable).
What Outlaw lost is the semi-exclusivity on Acrobatic Strikes, not the effect itself.
Also Ret Paladins did lose some of their extra-reach, they lost the talent that increased the range of their Crusader/Crusading/Templar strikes and rebuke (and also made the strikes heal them for 2% of their max health). They still have extra range on most other abilities though.