Who’s ready for some tooltip changes? I know I am!
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Oh thats a good idea a nice swim as an alliance in undercity’s lovely green water always prepares me for patch notes!
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Hero talent updates;
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So first reaction;
Deathstalker
All that should fix the mark mechanic quite well. So thats good. The rest of the hero talent remains a disjointed mess of random unrelated buff, so thematically the tree will still need to be consolidated.
Will test tonight, but good changes so far
Fatebound
Well, theres still a coin… but yeah there will be absolutely no way that the Heads and Tails effects balance out; during CDs if you have Tails it will feel bad, if you have Heads out of CDs, will feed bab. No way around it.
However, good changes to Lucky Coin.
I still hate the coin with a passion, but overall its functional and ok.
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Also also;
Day isn’t over but… are we getting updates to our base kit and trees at all at some point?
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Ok now Devs are cooking. Actually surprised no one had called for the tree to have an execute in the feedback beforehand. Now the SnD damage buff talent needs this same treatment.
Planning for your CDs to be active as the raid boss hits 20% hp is interesting.
No. Notes for this week’s update are already out.
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wonder how this will interact with sudden demise, i see some pvp issues if you can just proc auto kill at 20% instead of 10% interesting indeed
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I genuinely dont think itd stack up fast enough to be an issue in PvP. Seems like the type of thing thats ordinarily supposed to be 1-2% of your damage. Whether its 1 or 2 tho will depend on lining up cds. Will see after raid testing
Ok so, Deathstalker updates
Deathstalker post updates
- Over reliance on stealth to trigger Mark. It’s not always an issue, but there are many circumstances that will make it so you don’t have Darkest Night ready to go, and no vanish charges
- Following the point above, the hero talent will require us to play around it a lot which is very distracting from the rest of the kit, especially when our energy in ST is so low
The above might be intended, meaning we will play around this heavily, unlike almost every other hero tree in the game right now which doesn’t require as much focus. There are some risks, fights with intermissions (Razageth for example) - how does the mark get managed? Do we need Vanish to reset it? Etc.
All in all it adds to the concern that we have just more stuff relying on stealth, when in reality we don’t always have reliable access to it.
Would be nice also for all the other feedback and concerned people raised over the months about the base class be addressed somehow. Still no post about intents and future work here… I understand, us and Shamans were in close to the same boat, but hey even Shams got a blue post about when they will get updates 
Sin
Quick note, just move Dashing Scoundrel up, its so gated but at this point playing without all the energy talents we can leads to many situation where it doesnt feel good.
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Yo all of these changes are super great, but can Killing Spree PLEASE get fixed.
There cannot be a talent tree focused around making Killing Spree significantly stronger, while its as disfunctional as it is right now.
Between the insane risk with pressing it, the 20 second in combat cooldown, and the motion sickness inducing camera when using this with high haste especially during lust, this spell NEEDS to be looked at before we go live.
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Love the deathdealer changes, nothing better then seeing an entire tree that is 100% passive. While at the same time zero fixes to our dysfunctional class and spec trees.
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Continuing the discussion from The War Within Beta Development Notes:
Regarding this in relation to Death’s Mark. Can we get some clarification on what is meant by the next ability damage? Kind of lame if this applies to an auto attack or a DoT tick. I would like to see this specifically apply to a finisher.
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While it may be 100% passive, it rewards good play with resources which would in turn reduce the number of energy talents grabbed, giving you greater flexibility and choice over what you want to include talent wise…
… and if it doesnt then thats just proof energy truly is an issue. I dont think it is right now for Sub tho. It might be for Sin after the removal of mutilste energy.
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Want to follow up on Deathstalker;
We’re almost there, we finally almost have a hero talent tree that feels like one.
Sin oriented feedback
Take my comments from my previous post as constructive feedback - imo we still need;
- Energy options; I say options because a lot of people like the very slow energy, others want better energy regen. This applies to single target btw, AoE energy always feels good, ST can feel abysmally slow, as we said multiple times in this thread
- Need to ensure that raid mechanics would not prevent Darkest Night from being used before it falls off; Razageth’s phasing for example - what if she still has a mark when flying off? What if Darkest Night didnt have time to reapply?
- Is the intent here for us to always hold back vanish for this? Would love clarification on that, as Vanish is a poor replacement for Shadow Dance, and with a 2m timer not a reliable re-stealth - not to mention we could not use Vanish for Master Assassin and the like
- Follow the blood node does not affect crimson tempest, why? There is less way to re-apply multiple ruptures as well, Indiscriminate Carnage relies on vanish often enough, and we’re getting pretty taxed on stealth-required effect
Rogue Tree
- Shadowheart node : Speaking of stealth-required, this node is dead, serves no purpose, and will never be taken ever
Sin tree
Something was bugging me and I am starting to put my finger on it… we go far left to grab CT for M+, then path down left or mid for KB, then hard left or hard right for poison or bleed side, then if we want SBS we have to drop very important to mandatory nodes… like we have build options but its really hard to get any small options in that tree.
I said it before but a good example is how IC is so far down the tree as a capstone; we dont always get benefits from IC (less now with Shadow Dance removal), having it as a capstone as it is now just feels bad, whereas it should be an option higher mid while pathing for AoE.
Most if not all other classes and specs I look at are way less rigid in their pathing, and class trees are generally not as jammed pack with pure DPS; we have way way more DPS oriented nodes to juggle
Just a collection of thoughts and feedback from yours truly
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Also I’m starting to feel we need to reach 900 posts before we get a follow up about all our feedback XD
Okok I’m done for today, good changes for us, fellow rogues, hoping for more! Was dreaming we’d also have a blue post telling us “Hey yall, thanks, look forward to updates about XYZ next week or two”
I consumed way too much copium in the last 24 hours
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From an Outlaw perspective, I’m confused at the latest changes for Fatebound and the undocumented changes to Trickster.
- Streak buffs now have a duration of 15 seconds (was unlimited).
I guess this doesn’t do anything but punish downtime more.
- Heads buff now increases damage by 3% (was 5%) plus an additional 1% per stack.
- Tails base damage increased by 72%.
- Tails buff now increases its damage by 10% per stack (was 20%).
So, the Heads coin has more power put into extra stacks, but the Tails coin has more power put into the baseline proc. Sure, but why? I believe, at a given moment, our average stacks for a given coin are pretty low - even as Outlaw which flips coins faster than Sin - so I have the impression the Tails coin is now stronger than before and the Heads coin is weaker. The problem is, the Tails coin was already much stronger than the Heads coin for Outlaw, and now that disparity is worse, unless I’m missing something?
- Lucky Coin buff now increases Agility by 7% (was all primary/secondary/tertiary stats by 1%).
- Lucky Coin out-of-combat timer increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds).
- Lucky Coin now deals Cosmic damage (170% of Tails’ base damage) to your target if you already have the Lucky Coin buff upon flipping the same face for the seventh time in a row.
I feel like the most common feedback for the Lucky Coin capstone was in three parts:
- It felt unrewarding.
- It is just RNG out of your control.
- The decay-out-of-combat mechanic is toxic for keys. It will expire between packs on a whim. I don’t want to tell my tank we need to keep zooming or I will lose the capstone bonus.
These changes makes it certainly stronger than before so I guess it is more rewarding. However I still don’t think many people are thrilled about the layers of RNG to trigger it and the permanent duration until combat is lost.
- (Undocumented) Coup de Grace is now triggered by Crackshot (among other issues).
So… a lot of inner changes to Coup de Grace were parsed by datamining and it all just seems like a big mess. The spell now has several duplicates inside Details, it is now consumed by Crackshot, and still has the strange animation-lock that is longer than 0.8s and prevents you from spell queuing during it. The spell was given a 1.2s GCD, I guess to match the animation? So the animation thing is intended and we are expected to just deal with it, even inside Stealth windows? It also now has a 25-yard dash component attached to it similar to Blade Rush, which is strange (it’s not like you can trigger it while out of range). Honestly what is going on? None of these were announced so I guess we should ignore it and trust in the process?
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My question… what happened to dot stacking? Why is balance the only dps spec with it now? A unique mechanic that could be given to all dot specs in some form to further reward long encounters and yet no other dot spec has it? Every SBS i use on the same target should reward another short term dot. That type of thing. We technically have it with the mutilate talent that dots a target but its not the same.
Those are the classic fanboys. They can 100% be ignored.
Does this mean any streak will stop after 15 seconds? Thats dumb. Should be 20 at the very least considering our big CDs last 20 seconds baseline. If im on that streak i should be feeling bad cause it ended mid CD.
Oh good point, I doubt the streak expires at 15s intervals, the buffs will keep refreshing. The wording for “streak buffs” confused me there.
The deathstalker changes are quite amazing imo, though severly overdue. Fatal Intent I also think is an amazing replacement for Flensing Knives (I am aware of concerns of it conflicting with sudden demise, but I do not think these are a huge huge concern, since sudden demise has the general bleed buff to it). I also like that it is target agnostic and not tied to the mark. I think that deathstalker is in a much better spot for subtlety personally, but assassin does have a few concerns worth looking at.
There is legitimate concerns that assassin is relying too much on stealth mechanics for the spec compared to a stealth spec like subtlety, and deathstalker adds to this. Rather than ambush from stealth, make the requirement just ambush, allowing blindside to activate the mark. Assassin does not have nearly as many stealth options as subtlety even with Without a Trace talented (this talent doesn’t even do much of anything for assassin and needs a general look anyway). It won’t remove the stealth requirement for it, but it will ameliorate it in case some bad pull happened and stealth was lost removing the ability to apply the mark. It also would really not do anything to subtlety, since the only way subtlety can shadowstrike is dance or stealth/vanish, and that was the way the mark worked before. Another thing I think should be done is making the darkest night buff 60s to match deathstalkers mark. It would be a boon for M+ especially for sin, which has a lot more setup in each new pack. ALso gives flex if a tank will double pull and more time to apply the mark to a priority target (good for singular focus too).
The AoE choice node needs a very hard look now, because frankly, it’s stupid. More crit or more damage, not exactly a choice and IDK how it went live like that…
On the stealth requirements for assassin, I personally think that improved garrote, iron wire, and master assassin are fine, since we have had that since legion. I think the main concern to me is indiscriminate carnage relying on a stealth trigger. I believe I saw a suggestion during the 10.2 rogue rework where every X sec, you gain a stack of a buff, and you apply ruptures equaling the number of stacks. This I do think would be a bit better so multidotting isn’t as bad without stealth. I won’t say the old version of IC should come back since we did get things like caustic spatter and sanguine blades(more energy means above the 50% threshold to proc a lot more often) to help the aoe with the rework. I just think the stealth trigger for the talent needs to be reworked, with the loss of dance and the replacement doesn’t exactly help with it.
Last note, and a drum I will beat until death, give up on SnD as a button. Just make cut to the chase grant duration whether the buff is up or not. I feel it is a happy medium with the button available to people to use for nostalgia, yet not necessary to use if people do not want to. Also maintains a ramp since you would have to envenom/eviscerate/dispatch to get it going ( and the latter two specs SnD does give resources). It would also be less of an annoyance in AoE for sin and sub, since envenom/eviscerate are not usually a priority finisher. Lastly, at a time where a common concern is button bloat, I think maintaining a keybind you only press once a raid fight is the equivalent to keeping one’s head in the sand. It is fine if hardcasting SnD gives a longer duration than cut to the chase, just let cut to the chase not be contingent on SnD actually being running first.
6 Likes