I have been a Holy Paladin since Legion. I never played another healer. I don’t want to, but I am thinking about playing a Monk for the first time in my life. Why? because for me Monks do everything we Holy paladins dream about. I get it you guys want us to cast, there’s a small amount of holy paladins that want to cast due nostalgia to for the old holy paladin. But in terms of flavor, we are warriors of the light with curative affinities. we are in the front line fighting, we heal with the light while we do damage. we are melee.
I feel nerfing suns avatar to 40% was excessive, we need to do damage to be competitive in the high end of Mythic Plus, while we keep people alive. I am not saying that we should be the most broken but man, It’s sad to see how far away we are from other healers.
Healers can keep people alive very smoothly, meanwhile, I can make a whole song with the sound of my mechanical keyboard trying to keep people alive.
Holy Light, Light of Dawn, and Even Flash of Light you can buff them 1000% but these are not the skills we want to press.
It should be simple,
Holy shock should heal half of the life of a player life if crits,
Glimmer should spread via other means too like judgment or Crusader strike.
Tyrs and HoD should be one button or make hand of divinity apply tyrs overtime.
Buff back Sun’s avatar. I get it was overturned but 40%?
Make infusion interact with Holy Shock.
I read somewhere to attach daybreak to wings with Rising sunlight. That sounds awesome in my opinion.
Pump the Damage and Aoe Healing of Shield of The Righteous.
Decrease Holy Prism CD. Honestly, CD is so long that right now people rather play Barrier to apply Dawnlights quicker.
Remove Light of Dawn or make it an expansive wave that heals more closer you are with the Paladin.
Holy Light make it instant cast with Infusion give it the Divine Favor Treatment.
Eternal Flame no longer consumes Blessing of Dawn.
Honestly, I don’t really like the direction that Holy Paladin is going. Our base kit feels extremely weak so they could have actually gave us meaningful buffs instead of doing massive nerfs.
We have 4 million HP and the buffed up Light of Dawn is healing for 90k with Mastery. It feels like the problems from DF Season 3,4 are not going to get fixed for the war within
Agreed. Healer main, testing all the healers a lot and of all the healers i’ve been testing, Holy paladin actually does the least damage so far and stings a bit when Holy Priest does like 2x the damage. (I get it, they can’t heal+damage at the same time, but i only needed to hit 2 buttons to outdps hpal one of which is halo now and does heal at the same time). And hpal does not have a reliable way to truly dps and heal at the same time they do actually have to make choices.
Monk does not. Monk absolutely heals at the same time as dealing damage and sacrifices neither, basically Disc with their fists. I don’t really understand why Holy Paladin does the least amount of damage and to achieve even that little damage they have to use hshock offensively and lose out on healing, holy power offensively on shield and lose out on healing, and try NOT to cast to get auto attacks out. Monks don’t even have to be melee at all to heal even without a dedicated “ranged” build they do fine. If a hpal tries the same it’ll go horribly - mastery, the way Light of Dawn works, massively limited HP because you can’t crusader strike, etc. Cherry on top of it all is how mobile a monk is and they become MORE mobile now that roll goes further and grants them a Demon Hunter style double jump. And paladin… still just has a horse. Oh boy.
The main rotation though is 3 buttons. We have plenty of cds to use, which is nice!
Wake of Ashes, Final Reckoning/Exec Sentence, Avenging Wrath, Divine Toll, and lots of utility. Out kit is great, I’m just asking for another button or two is all for our main rotation
Crusader Strike, Judgment, Shield of the Righteous all these offensive skills should interact with Glimmer of Light this will pump the Avenging Crusader option even more. Spread the Glimmers, Pop wings, and let the healing of the Glimmers be a plus for the damage you are doing with CS , Glimmer and Judgment, pick veneration and now HoW joins the party. That sounds super fun.
Blizzard please, I am on my knees I have been loyal for already 4 expansions since I started healing. I don’t want to play Monk. I live this class, I live the paladin Life. For the light.
Make Tyr’s deliverance a passive that grants a % to “flare up” active glimmer of lights into DoTS or HoTs when you cast judgment, CS, and SOTR. this flare-ups should be holy shocks at 50% of their effectiveness.
Hand of DIvinity will leave a 16 HoT (that resembles Current Tyer Deliverance that can extended with Holy shock)
please consider a more extensive rework for the spec. i am aware that blizzard is trying to please those who favor the castor build more and i think this has been achieved but the problem is the castor build and old melee build are so fundamentally different that they are irreconcilable. as others have noted holy power spenders feel much less powerful than other buttons this is a huge problem as a melee build is dependent on the holy power spenders being extreamly strong due to the melee generators not healing any. i believe that both builds can be pleased at the same time if you leverage Choice nodes more. as a whole the choice node system has not been utilized to its full potential to truly allow for alternative builds do not shy away from going all out with lots of choice nodes.
without changing the tree super dramatically i can think of several places where choice nodes could be implemented to please both melee and ranged styles. for example, in the place of lights conviction there could be a choice node option that buffs holy shocks healing and holy power spenders healing by a certain amount but keeps holy shock at 1 charge. not all of us want to spam holy shock all the time. i loved playing around the spenders in shadowlands and season 1 of dragonflight. this would have the affect of making holy shock feel more powerful whenn pressed and less spammy and also make us less reliant on glimmer of light and daybreak.
additionally, i think daybreak should be a choice node as well with a talent that simply buffs divine toll. in the choicel node of daybreak it could read like “divine tolls healing is increased by 110%” in a seperat choice node in the place of rising sunlight there could be a talent that says something like " glimmer of lights healing is reduced by 100% but holy shock initial heal is buffed by (inset appropriate buff to holy shock to make it feel good as a spot heal considering the loss of glimmer throughput)
rework crusaders might to also buff the holy power spenders by a certain amount while nerfing flash of light and holy light to compensate for the gain in spender power. a melee holy pally should be rewarded with strong spenders for doing melee rotation but be limited to not be able to heal as well while casting.
please take advantage of the choice node system it has the potential to drastically improve player choice in playstyle without having us forced to take “meta” talents because they are too powerful not to take. for every “must take” talent node it should have an equally powerful alternative playstyle node.
also please just delete tyrs deliverance or give us a passive talent opiton where we dont have to take another cd its extremely hard to balance the spec around because in theory it will do an insane amount of healing because of its long duration but in reality, a lot of it is over healing and useless. the options if you chose to not take tyrs deleverance are not good. give us options i beg you dont lock us in
also as an additional edit, the hero talent trees were a huge missed opportunity to allow for the ranged and melee playstyles to have their own tree independent of each other
Is not an strong caster nor an strong meele healer.
It’s just a bake between a team who wants to make it range caster with judgement and another team who wants it meele with Word of Glory spam. Then you have a lot of cd’s that can be easily baked into something that already exist (Daybreak into Divine Toll, for an example), that answer to both designs.
So the talent tree is worst than a freshman project. Dissapointing for a company who ask for a monthly fee honestly.
So, for this beta (and maybe half of the expansion) the caster team is trying to bring it to spam SoTR and hardcast heals on meele range.
Let’s hope that on patch X.2 Holy Paladin can get a rework to get nerfed to the ground again.
I would agree with you if it wasn’t for the fact that you often can’t really press those 3 buttons (+ any others like execution sentence or whatever else) without SOMETHING resetting and thus providing you with something to press. I get your perspective but I think if there are to be more rotational buttons, there has to be something taken out of the rotation to compensate (divine storm no longer procs free uses, or at least procs way less often, same thing with free templar’s verdict; otherwise, things would get overwhelming)
Oh hmm I get that too. Could we find a middle ground and make it just one extra button?
If they could make Templar Strike more viable, I honestly think that would satiate me
I mean you could run it. At the end of the day it probably wouldn’t lose you enough dps to matter unless you’re a cutting edge raider.
A lot of talent choices aren’t going to make your dps fall directly on the floor if they’re suboptimal. Just build for it, compare sims, and see if you can be content with the loss. anything within ~5% is pretty negligible.
My paladin is not geared well right now on the live servers. But i changed Crusading Strikes to Templar strikes and nothing else, and only lost 2.9% dps. You could probably reduce that gap by adjusting the build to support it more. So templar strikes is completely viable, just not optimal. And if it makes you happier, that more than makes up the difference in my eyes.
I played DH throughout the entirety of shadowlands and never changed my build to whatever was most optimal in a given season (and it changed every season). I played what i liked, and did well regardless. Even when the divide was larger.
Edit there are also just builds on wowhead that don’t opt for that talent slot at all and you can just use vanilla crusaders strike if that pleases you
Ok, some notes Herald of the Sun and interactions with Crusade, Avenging Wrath, RG/Crusade, and RG/AvengingWrath
Herald of the Sun
Radiant Glory + Crusade - Simply not a great combo right now. Divine Purpose does not grant credit to Crusade which I’m pretty sure is a bug/oversight, since the Divine Purpose is baked into the Herald talents. Current the optimal way to play RD/Crusade is to have a macro to cancelaura divine purpose. for the sake of stacking. Of the 11.5 seconds for Crusade, you can spend up to 7 seconds stacking the buff to max out Crusade. Max haste level attained with my gear: 65% (11% from gear). Feels great for a whole 5 seconds of the burst window.
Radiant Glory + Avenging Wrath - Good combo. As it stands, this feels like it will be the go-to. Avenging Wrath seems to synergize very well with Radiant Glory since there’s no ramp up time. This is going to be an issue for PVP players who want to use this combo, because Avenging Wrath has a 50% Aura Nerf, giving it 10% Damage/Healing/Crit in PVP. Maximum haste achieved: 24% (11% from gear). This feels much better than using Crusade
Agenging Wrath Proper - Feels wasted. Maximum haste achieved: 24% (11% from gear). Dawnlights don’t last the entire duration of Avenging Wrath. Makes your first half of wings feel great, second half feels mediocre. As previously stated, this is even more of an issue for anyone who wants to use Avenging Wrath for PVP due to the 50% Aura nerf.
Crusade Proper - Same as Avenging Wrath. Feels wasted. Maximum haste acheived: 104% (once somehow, but usually 65%) (11% from gear) Dawnlights don’t last the full duration of Crusade. Makes the first half feel unbelievably smooth due to the haste levels. Second half feels less good.
My recommendations:
Radiant Glory + Crusade - Crusade starts out at 4 stacks. Ensure that Divine Purpose grants credit toward Crusade. This makes it so Crusade will get fully stacked in two gcds and will make this combo feel much better. Quick Templar Insert Crusade should start out at 5 stacks so Hammer of Light can max the stack instantly. I know using Hammer of Light at 5 sounds unhinged, but currently on the Beta Hammer of Light gains the benefit of the stacks it would bring Crusade to.
Dawnlights - Cap the stacks at whatever number feels comfortable, but make stacks last for the duration of Crusade/Avenging Wrath, whether used proper or with Radiant Glory. Also, please try to program Dawnlight so if you try to apply Dawnlight to a target that already has it, it applies to another target that doesn’t have it. Having to tab target to spread dawnlight is incredibly tedious.
I’ll probably do some more in depth Templar interactions tomorrow.
blessing of dawn does not affect eternal flame(i mean eternal flame does not cost blessing of dawn buff. So you dont also get blessing of ‘dusk’ buff). it does not increase healing amount of eternal flame. It works well on word of glory but why not eternal flame??
Honestly, If anything, they should remove that buff for Holy Paladin completely and bake that power back in our rotation.
Feels terrible to have spenders healing to be so unreliable/swingy when we need to do some heavy spot healing.
Also, please reconsider looking into Reclamation positioning in the tree. That talents buff Crusader Strike, which have nearly nothing to do with Tyr’s Deliverance caster playstyle
Sounds awesome like vanilla wow where you had to think about pulls instead of coming out of fights with more health and mana. Now trash mobs heal blood dks and other nonsense going on.
I didn’t say vanilla pala sweetie
see what I’m playing
vanilla pala was a slog. But the kinda gameplay you mentioned where you have to think about resources is fun imo. Classic hardcore works for that reason while retail hardcore wouldn’t.
and stings a bit when Holy Priest does like 2x the damage. (I get it, they can’t heal+damage at the same time, but i only needed to hit 2 buttons to outdps hpal one of which is halo now and does heal at the same time). And hpal does not have a reliable way to truly dps and heal at the same time they do actually have to make choices.