not angry, just blunt. ep going to the class tree makes 0 sense. whats the holy and prot equivilant? and having more throughput isnt fun either. we already have tons of it. it’ll just make it harder to see what to drop for utility
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What to Expect from Hero Talents
Each tree will offer or modify some class utility and include defensive bonuses that are useful to all specializations.
Where do you find class utility? Probably in the Class Tree.
Referencing the Class Tree, is design process feedback.
My feedback, which is just mine, it’s not right, its not wrong, its just feedback-- is basically:
- The class utility currently feels bad, and building upon that, to the extent Hero Talents should, isn’t going to solve that bad feeling.
Blizzard is putting the cart before the horse.
If you want successful Hero Talents, first revisit the Class Tree, fixing problems 1, 2, and 3, then come back to the Hero Talents afterwards.
I have no idea what this references, I almost never ask for more throughput. I purposefully leave my feedback open ended as to not give my solutions.
The only thing I suggested was maybe doing Imbues on gear rather than reticle armaments, too which I left the buffs open ended as well.
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We have seen plenty of lightsmiths among the lightforged and naaru, which is the inspiration. Probably mixed with the arathi stuff that’s coming.
I don’t think divine steed is the answer or something exciting to build around. If the fantasy they’re leaning on is holy protector then divine steed sorta fails to meet that mark at all.
Again, Divine Steed is just an example. I don’t care what utility they add to the trees.
I’m just stating baseline Divine Steed doesn’t feel good to press. Improved Blessing of Protection and Improved Blessing of Sacrifice aren’t interesting talents.
Until you make those abilities feel good to press and spec into baseline, you aren’t going to make them very interesting in Hero Talents without over burdening them.
If ** Divine Steed only feels good for Templar Paladins, because you put the “fixes” for Divine Steed in the Templar Tree, that doesn’t help Holy…
That ability, as an example, needs to be improved baseline before we jump into the Hero Trees.
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From the Perspective of a Holy Paladin:
I love the idea of supporting our team aside from healing/protecting them. However, adding more visual elements to an already cluttered environment during an encounter can be uncomfortable and challenging.
Dropping a shiny armament into a hazardous area, often indicated by ‘don’t stand here’ visuals, can result in a wasted cooldown, or even worse outcomes.
Based purely on Armament’s mechanics, I think it would be better to use a reticle for AoE Armaments and just a mouseover for single buffs.
Why not use smart casting with these Hero Talents? It’s a great opportunity to buff players under your reticle, based on their specialization, instead of dropping a shiny yellow hammer hoping for someone to pick it up.
Another idea is using the active aura to bless friendly units/party members with armaments (same range, for example), and again, based on their specialization.
Rotating between high-impact cooldowns and defensive cooldowns can lead to situations where you regret having used Holy Bulwark for a DPS increase when you need it later, or underestimate the tank’s need and waste Sacred Weapon, hoping for a soon return of Holy Bulwark.
Now, looking at some talents, there are similar (if not equal) choices in our current talent tree and in the Lightsmith talent tree mockup. Like “Consecration heals over time” (Divine Guidance). Regardless of the amount, this approach has been tried and found lacking in the dynamic, movement-heavy environment of modern WoW. Alternatively, you can stack charges to make your next Devotion Aura more powerful (like 1% per stack, with a maximum of 10-20 stacks).
There is another issue now with the requirement of Holy Power spenders (Divine Guidance / Blessed Assurance): if the ability (HP spender) is not worth being cast (like the current Word of Glory vs Flash of Light), then this talent will almost be forgotten (like a “oh right, sometimes my heal/dmg is bigger, can’t remember why”). In other words, their impact doesn’t feel powerful. Maybe, inverting those effects will feel better in the long run. “Your holy power generators make your next holy power spender echo 1 more time, with a maximum of 2 charges).” In this way, you will feel rewarded for making your rotation and then spending HP into a powerful effect. About Divine Guidance: Holy power leaves a HoT on the target for 3 seconds, applying 5% of the healing done by WoG per second.
The other talent which feels out of place is Divine Inspiration. Specifically, where is the Holy Armament manifested? Nearby whom? What distance? This can lead to multiple collision or line of sight issues that, added to the amount of floor textures during every combat, can be disastrous.
The rest looks so promising and innovative enough to be hyped.
Good work, and sorry if my English is broken (it’s not my mother language).
Improved Blessing of Sacrifice allows you to line it up with Shield of Vengeance, meaning any time you want to click a defensive as ret you can shield someone else and pop the shield faster. It’s pretty staple in most of my ret builds.
Shield of Vengeance having a 63 second cooldown is the bigger issue in that particular interaction, and even then, in the builds where I don’t want to take Improved Blessing of Sacrifice, I usually put into something like Lightforged Blessing, Healing Hands, or Judgment of Light that I’m giving up in order to take it.
I fundamentally disagree with what you’re saying simply because you have a different interpretation or valuation of those talents. If I’m choosing to pick up Improved Blessing of Sacrifice, it’s almost always a DPS option so that I can more consistently pop my shield. If I can’t afford that, then I’m picking up more supportive talents that add passive healing to the group.
That’s a meaningful choice imo, just like choosing to take Turn Evil instead of either Auras of the Resolute or Fist of Justice 1/2 on affix weeks is a meaningful choice. It changes the way that I think about and play a dungeon or raid.
Boring talents are ones like Cavalier and Seasoned Warhorse that effectively make your movement ability playable. There’s no reason for Divine Steed to be 4s on a 45s cd, and talenting another 2s feels bad and like a waste. Divine Steed needs a rework, not the class tree.
In that video he isn’t talking much about class tree, its hero talent tree. Hes absolutely correct the hero talent tree really just needs to be re-done, its very bad. He didnt say anything about class tree.
Also he said that holy paladin rework/changes were good, but the nerfs ended up hurting that new playstyle they gave to hpals which is true. We played so well in 10.1.5, it was a ton of fun, and the nerfs we got from then until 10.2 practically gutted that playstyle. It doesn’t feel nearly as good to press daybreak anymore (still my favorite ability for holy paladin though), extending tyrs doesn’t feel as worthwhile or rewarding, casting FoL should feel a lot better, etc. I don’t believe it is a class tree issue all that much for holy paladin, i can’t speak for the other specs though.
I think the issues are:
We were overnerfed
Holy power still feels like it’s lost within our spec. This is what needs a rework (or removal)
3-4 dead pvp talents. And by dead i mean literally dead, not even niche.
This is about hero talents though not hpal feedback so I won’t go into much more detail, but I don’t really think changing the class tree will do much for hpal gameplay, especially because they need to consider the other 2 specs too. My main issues are holy power gameplay and overnerfing things like daybreak and glimmer.
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As for hero talents:
Lightsmith is a really really bad tree. It just has ‘frustration’ written all over it. Placing something on the ground for the right person to walk over while we have all of these ground effects already is the opposite of exciting. On top of that there is maintenance attached to it, but holy paladin already has that with blessing of summer, glimmer and holy power/mana. It will bloat the playstyle for something that will be frustrating.
I don’t feel excited about it at all, really hope to see it re-done with something that is specific to paladins. Please please stop throwing the support role at paladins, we do enough of it with our utility as a class, offhealing for prot and things like Blessing of seasons for holy paladin. I would like to see this be something that enhances the playstyle or adds to it without maintaining something to buff others. Maintenance is a big factor here, it will just end up being annoying I promise. Current Lightsmith tree will absolutely detract from both prot and holy playstyles.
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I don’t want to come across as a snob and I mean this as an actual and serious question, with respect to you and your time. You’re ilvl 450, and you have not stepped into any raids outside of LFR or m+ outside of Shadowlands season 1. You aren’t playing current end game content outside of PvP apparently, and even then you seem to play almost exclusively ret.
What potential feedback or insight are you able to provide to a spec or specs that you don’t play (at the very least at an end game content level)?
I watched the clip, and I’ve read what you’ve posted, and I agree that the current hero talents suck. Maximum didn’t talk about the class tree at all, only about the hero talents, in the clip that you made. He talked about how Holy got nerfed to an extent as to make it feel less fun, and that’s correct – that has nothing to do with the class talents, and everything to do with the way that the nerfs were implemented (heavily, as usual.)
We both agree that the hero talents are bad, and yes you are entitled to your opinion and nobody is denying that.
But what does Divine Steed (or any of your other proposed changes) have to do with the modern 10.2+ prot or holy paladin? You play ret, and play pvp – what insight are you able to provide here regarding how the specs currently do or don’t play in pve content?
I just want to understand where your head is at that, since you’re making what are frankly strange suggestions and defending them with confidence that seems unearned?
My super basic suggestion was to basically give Lightsmith an inverted Shield of Vengeance that they apply whenever they click a single target, direct heal on an ally, and that their current aura affect secondary effects of the shield.
It’d be an absorb shield that gets applied and automatically tracked by passives, so you can choose to ignore that limitation or prioritize spot healing on certain targets. While the shield is active it grants, based off of aura: passive hot, movement while casting, leech, or movement speed. When the shield ends, it pops to provide extra damage to the target based on the amount of shield remaining.
I don’t think that is at all outside of the typical wheelhouse for either holy or prot (spot healing as tank or hitting holy shock etc as holy) and offers an opportunity for less desirable auras to get use (like concentration granting movement while casting.) It also plays into the aura mastery theme of holy.
I play multiple Paladins, and have for 20 years. I’m not saying my way is correct or not, I’m just simply giving my feedback.
So why ask for my credentials if I’m allowed my own opinion and right to provide feedback in any way I see fit? I wasn’t really arguing with anyone or saying “NO MY WAY IS RIGHT!!!”
Or am I mistaken?
As for referencing the video, Maxmium stated the tree needs to be redone, but doesn’t exactly give a reason why. I’m simply trying to give my reason why I agree, if that makes sense?
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Not to butt in here again, and all of this convo is unrelated right now to hero talents.
Should probably at least try to keep it concise and on topic for the devs/cms reading it but he did not say class tree needs to be redone in that video, he said the hero tree needs to be redone in the timestamp that you gave. He stated exactly why as well.
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So why ask for my credentials
Because instead of allowing people to disagree or think your take is poor, you’re actively defending yourself and trying to win people over. If everyone’s opinion is valid, then people can think my solution is bad just as easily as they think yours is bad, or anyone else’s.
It becomes about credentials when you create a dissertation/report with images and link to videos that you claim you support, while making arguments not present or included in that material.
I looked you up simply because of how odd your takes are and how adamantly you’re defending them/building up on your ideas here. I thought maybe I was missing something that much better players are seeing and I’m not – nope, apparently you’re posting either from an alt or you aren’t familiar with the current playstyle, which makes sense with how much your solutions are ret-pilled.
Any can disagree, that’s fine, but it’s nice to at least give a reason why. You provided your reasons as to why you think that class tree is relatively good as is, and I appreciated that, but I still disagree.
I’m just giving my reasons why I think the class tree is bad, again to state my opinion that I believe that is the root of the issue with the Hero Talents.
Me adding pictures has nothing to do with how important I view my opinions, it’s just easier for me to get my feedback across than typing multiple paragraphs.
Yes sorry, it’s not my intention. I just wanted to take my feedback a step further and give my reasonings.
I don’t find: “Nope bad tree is bad” as valid feedback. This was never meant to be an argument.
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Not true. Having more support on top of what we already have is not good imo. Especially when their idea of ‘support’ for some reason seems to be maintenance buffs. Blessing of seasons and now Armaments are two big support abilities and both of them require maintenance (Seasons isn’t as bad at 45 sec but still requires maintaining it).
On top of that, hpal already has enough to focus on. Glimmer spreading, holy power management, mana management, if your really min maxing you want 2 stacks of dawn before spending holy power because it’s weak and that makes it semi worthwhile to use, blessing of seasons maintenance, etc. We do not need a new support ability that also requires the paladin to maintain it, and these talents do because of the extension talent.
I want to see a rework for hpals holy power system before I see anything at all for support. The spec has enough of it.
The ground reticle for Armaments is a massive issue, but so is the fact it’s a low quality maintenance buff that we’ll end up constantly trying to extend because it’s better than nothing. Not much I’m excited for about it.
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We already know Wake of Ashes is involved. And considering that Templar Strikes deal Radiant damage like WoA, you could easily extrapolate that the Templar hero spec will be the Ashbringer themed mid-ranged DoT Paladin we had during the development of the rework. That was scraped in favor of ST/AoE split we have now.
Why is Templar the Wake of Ashes spec and not the Herald of the SUN? Beats me.
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I Hope Herald of the Sun brings back exorcism and has some kind of laser beam theme
Maybe Flash/Holy light behave like holy shock. Same with exorcism
Last thing we need is a DoT theme in a spec lacking the martial aspect of a holy warrior tbh.
(made a separate thread for this but wanted to repost it here too)
Feedback on current Lightsmith tree:
-Ground reticle is going to be very bad. Having to walk through this will be extremely frustrating in m+/raid/pvp.
-If you throw it at a target (@cursor macro or not) and fire appears where you just threw it, that is frustrating. If your target gets gripped or knocked away in pvp, that is frustrating. If the wrong person walks over it in raid/m+ because of movement, that is frustrating. Attempting to put this buff on the melee player you may want too will be very bad.
-Visual clutter will make it hard to see regardless of the visual animation. Unless the visual is massive, it will be bad. If it matches the color/vibrancy of the floor that will also be bad.
-The talent “Valiance” is extremely bad for gameplay. Holy Paladin has Blessing of seasons to maintain, holy power/mana to watch, Blessing of Dawn to watch if you minmax, Glimmer to maintain, etc. Having to focus on potentially extending this talent, aka maintaining it, is just bloat to our gameplay for a small gain, it is going to feel bad I promise.
Possible suggestion:
Without actually changing the way Armaments acts as support too much, I want to throw out an idea on how to keep it visually appealing but far less frustrating. There are many ways to go about this, my suggestion is just to show the direction I think it should go regarding its mechanics. I think it should move in a direction of something we summon or ‘create’ via light, and should add to the paladins gameplay slightly via healing/damage while still having a buff or support element. There have been other great suggestions as well.
-“You summon Holy Weapons that duplicate x% of your healing on x target or your damage on y target, based on whatever you directly do first (damage or healing). If you heal, your target gains a buff. If you damage a target, you gain a buff.” 2 charges.
These buffs can be whatever, ie your healing target gains x% stamina and primary stat for the duration of your armaments, and the buff to the paladin can be damage since it comes from doing damage first. The healing buff can be capped target wise if needed.
I would then redo the rest of the tree to be based off of that, and I would completely delete the extension from the tree as well so there is no maintenance involved which is close to the worst part. This would also make it so there is no ground reticle as we would summon the armaments instead, so it could still be very visually striking but no longer annoying to deal with placement. This also makes it an additional damage/healing cooldown that you think about slightly but not overly as it would hopefully not be tuned too strong. I would keep the weapon imbue talent and potentially lean into that even more as well.
It’s kinda impressive that the dev team managed to come up with “Blessing of Summer, but worse in every way”. And that people felt like this was the big reveal that should be done with the first set of Hero talents. You’d think you’d want some of your most impressive ideas to come out of the gate, and if THIS is what the dev team is thinking of, I can’t see Hero Talents being anything other than “Covenants 2.0”.
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