Options are good. WoW has been around for a long time, and some people think their spec should play this way, and some that way.
You want people to look around on the ground for stuff to pick up? I REALLY hope armaments drop in fire puddles, sanguine and other fun things. AMAZING. TRULY INSPIRING GAMEPLAY. I canât wait for stuff to explode all over and me to âpick it upâ off the ground.
Get real. This game is 20 years old, people want direct mechanics they can thematically push into. Dropping stuff on the ground and other issues like spawns to kill or hit or whatever is not engaging itâs a nuisance.
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Glad I didnât pre-order at this pointâŚ
yikes.
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Ret is thematicly popular, being popular doesnt equate to strong or viable. While Ret was played by many in SL, it was still killed by a single âThe Huntâ if the DH got the cast off or by a single uninterupted Convoke from 30yards away once per min per Druid. Tuning is the math the shapes the reality in the game. While its not new, the 30 second debuff Forbearance tuning provides Rets that are fearful to use a defensive that may be removed in 2 seconds, or falls off on its own after 8, that prevents the use of 4 other defensives for 30 seconds. This provides Ret the title of easiest target to kill for 22-28 seconds. Doing less damage AND having less tools for success than the rest of melee specs has Ret in an uncomfortable spot.
No spec is unviable, letâs get that out of the way
The data we have from keys shows that while it is not the strongest, it is more than capable of accomplishing high keys.
As itâs representation in 25s+ is still significant.
Just like most of the other spec, it wonât accomplish the highest, that will be the proper of at most 6-7 specs.
It doesnât mean its damage profile between AoE any ST couldnât be improved.
Anyway, this ainât the place for this.
Thatâs a Prot/hole thread.
M+ is the where Ret performs the best as its cleave and AoE isnt terrible. All specs can participate and complete PVE content, as long as someone survives until the NPC(s) die. I forget sometimes to clerify, my perspective is primarily pvp, while I also reference specs single target performance in raid, as it is a metric more players care about and can see detailed logs proving comparatively weak or strong performance. Ret, with a well played group, having raid boss kills or M+ keys completed is not where we disagree.
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Itâs not really interesting at all. Nothing really unique about it because Hpal as far as we are aware will still have Blessing of seasons. Armaments is basically a blessing of seasons you drop on the ground, but far more annoying and far less interesting. Seasons is at least every 45s and you get to rotate through cool buffs, some of which you can use on yourself/healers and some of which you can use on yourself or dps.
Armaments will have a very annoying mechanic at its core. Throw it on the ground and hope the right person picks it up, hope it doesnât land in fire, hope the person you want grabbing it doesnât get gripped or knocked away in pvp, etc. Imagine trying to get this to your warrior in melee but you have 2 demon hunters, a windwalker monk, a rogue or two and 2 tanks running around in melee? Youâll never be able to guarantee that gets to who you want it to.
On top of that, the talent âValianceâ turns this into a maintenance buff, so not only will it be annoying to find and gain the buff, but the paladin is now pushed into maintaining the buff due to this talent. This makes it awful in pvp and m+ because theres too much downtime to maintain a buff like that, so either you do weird stuff out of combat or you just lose your buff. Its awful in general because its just an additional maintenance buff to deal with, we already have enough to look at+seasons is a maintenance buff too.
I donât mind a support tree, but the devs seem to think support=maintenance buffs for paladins, especially holy paladins, and itâs very annoying.
I am praying âHerald of the Sunâ is related far more to our actual spells, like Daybreak/Glimmer/Holy shock for holy paladins. With talents like Daybreak/Rising Sunlight/Blessing of Summer and Glimmer icon being sun themed it seems, it would be cool to see. I just hope its way more interesting than Lightsmith.
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I see something I have to manually place? I choose some thing else.
Good thing I have been thrilled about Herald of the Sun since the announcement.
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I just reread the big blog from the developers about hero talents and I wanted to point something out about what was said:
âThere will be additional opportunities for players to express their skill, but weâre trying not to add things like complex maintenance buffs that increase the cognitive load for everyone playing a class.â
Then we have this talent:
Valiance- âConsuming Shining Light or Infusion of Light extends the duration of any active armaments by 3 sec or reduces the cooldown of Armaments by 3 sec if none exist.â
So, that is a bit of a contradiction. This will make holy paladins always prioritize Infusion of Light to extend armaments, even if there are other important abilities to press. This talent turns armaments entirely into a maintenance buff, which could end up forcing annoying gameplay by requiring the spending of infusions even if you are not ready to do so.
Right now with holy paladin we donât always spend infusion charges before pressing holy shock again because we have Glimmer to manage. Sometimes you get holy shock resets and want to hit holy shock again before you spend an infusion, and sometimes due to Imbued infusions you get holy shock back right away so you only spend 1 infusion (if you talent into Sunwell like most do you get 2 charges). This will just bloat gameplay, on top of holy paladins having blessing of seasons already.
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Holy paladins adding additional buffs/support related contributions/spells is just more reasons for the devs to massacre our HPS even further.
2:30/3:00 aura mastery for 15% and Blessing of sacrifice donât make up for the fact our HPS is atrocious. Our other utilities donât stop group members from dying (for keeping the group alive, freedom does nothing, bop is really only for bleeds, divine shield is for self, and LoH is single target 7 minute cooldown- does nothing for AOE DMG)
Adding armaments is another reason to ignore what actually matters as a healer
YepâŚ
Honestly I donât think thereâs a deep understanding of the gameplay loops, maintenance buffs and procs that Holy currently experience. If there was, they wouldnât be tacking on yet another mechanic that is woven into the existing mess that is the Holy Pal priority system which makes it even harder to untangle and understand.
The way it is now we already have so much fighting for our globals that we munch procs, we over cap on our core resource or we ignore whole swathes of our kit (casts or melee).
Why not add this new thing in the mix? It should introduce a new vector that will change that matrix of complexity. Should be interesting⌠
A lot of good feedback has been given here, I just want to pitch an idea for a better version of something like the Shared Resolve talent that may or may not fit with a hero tree or just be a cool spec or class talent. I like the idea of either changing devo aura, empowering it, or adding an aura that provides those in it something like a low level version of sacrifice, sort of like brewmaster stagger. E.g. all damage taken by the party is reduced by x% for the next x seconds and returned as an evenly distributed DoT over the next x seconds, it could also be instant redistribution like a weak spirit link. Maybe for a prot/holy flavor have it shield x number of the lowest health party members for an an amount equal to x% damage taken (taken by you as prot, taken by your beacon target as holy) in the last x seconds.
I feel like the hero trees provide a good opportunity to play more with our auras and maybe bring back seals as something like a passive capstone. Since the goal to my knowledge is for hero trees to be largely passive and thematic, it makes great use case for these things that have never quite fit well as core mechanics but are still a deep part of the class identity. One tree could have a keystone that makes ret aura give a mini avenging wrath to the party when the paladin uses avenging wrath, similar to how it already works but on demand. Similarly, crusader aura lacks any use in a raid/dungeon environment outside running back from a wipe when mounts are available, adding something like the old Pursuit of Justice talent, x% base MS + x% per stored holy power. These may be a terrible ideas, but I think it could give paladins some fun flavor and good utility, especially if combined with the right visuals and sound design.
Also please add something that makes blinding light a stun/knockdown/knockback/not break on damage/silence, for a 2 minute CD, it feels awful in M+ because it amounts to just a momentary interrupt that immediately breaks unlike other similar aoe cc abilities provided to other classes.
Finally, for the love of all that is holy, give prot paladins a way to have consecration move with them, even if it is just a CD that makes it an aura for 20 seconds or something. It is maddening to do certain pulls that require a lot of movement that other classes do with ease because 20-30% of their damage reduction isnât tied to a stationary ground effect. The hallways outside butcher in waycrest and first pull (if you go big) in everbloom are good examples of this. This is less a power issue and more of a quality of life thing, I love being the tank that can set up and just face tank everything, but sometimes mobility is really important for the game to feel fluid, give us the ability, but make it tactical instead of persistent.
Paladins have no shortage of need for some extra talents and abilities that would fit nicely into the hero tree but would feel like painful tradeoffs in the class or spec trees. This is a good opportunity to fill some of those gaps, please look towards filling those and polishing what is already good rather than adding new systems that donât really integrate with the existing design. I havenât played holy lately, but prot and especially ret are right at the brink of being amazing, they just need some love on a few talent nodes, a couple of QoL changes, some balance/scaling fixes, and maybe a little love on their visuals and sound design to feel really great.
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This is literally my biggest worryâŚ. Iâm praying herald of the sun is betterâŚ
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I think the better answer here is to completely remove the defensive buff from standing in consecration, I am BAFFLED they ever even considered this much less implemented it. Feels like such a forced way to make sure you put consecration into your rotation, as opposed to letting it get used naturally.
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If the added Dot damage was substantial, it could sure up Rets poor raid and pvp performance, tuning will decide.
Fixing the issues directly (passivly or in the normal talents trees) and allowing Hero talents to be cool changes/augments to existing abilities players already want to press sounds better than using Hero talents to fix existing problems.
Prot Paladin would benefit more from Consecration being a buff that follows them because it is on them instead of placed stationary on the ground as its now through a change in the base game or through regular talents more than where the new talents should be used to make good abilities even better. More defensiviness and damage from SoR would be a good start
Holy Paladin might want WoG to do actual healing baseline, not spending Hero talents to try to make pressing WoG worth it.
Ret for Raid needs damage, and if the plethora of pvp concerns are not being corrected through pvp talents you could A) give pvp Rets a reason to get excited about Hero Talents through addressing our lack of tools the rest of melee already has or our defensives being removed/stolen.
or B) Some compensation damage for not having a mortal strike, disarm, instant mobility, and generally having less cc that players can be harmed durning without breaking. Micro CC has been a topic of contention in the pvp community. Ret doesnt have it, but Ill take it if I can get it. Something as simple as a proc chance for crits of any one ability we already use, to stun the target a short duration might help us close the gap and reach our target a tad more often. Targets are stun immune often already so more damage would likely help Ret more than more CC, just thinking out loud.
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Somehow I feel like regardless of the feedback especially with Holy Armaments being another maintenance ability nothing is going to change.
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Since Prot got told âno you must stand still to survive in M+, here is an empowered consecration to worry about to make your job harder than it need beâ instead of a easy to use new benefit to getting tier gear, Iâm just waiting impatiently for beta to drop so I can see what templar is like as I do still play Retribution in pvp at the bottom of the bracket.
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Thatâs real telling to when itâs objectively the most powerful tier out of the 3 and itâs in last place and S1 is winning.
People really donât like âstand in consecrationâ gameplay in general.
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