Feedback: Oracle in The War Within

Classes Priest
102

Nah. Why it have to be a priest again. Why we are always the testing goats.

The entire playerbase - “remove or restrict pi to self only cast”
Blizzard: proceeds to tripple down on it. It will be needlessly complex and it will either be brokenly OP and nightmare to tune, or useless…i jist cannot see any scenario in between.

It sounds cool on paper…but the feedback is clear…and its also clear that it will be ignored again.

Edit: also if you wanna ignore eu forums, since nobody even bothered to create feedback section there…can we finaly do something about merging the forums from both regions? So EU players dont have to go troigh this circus loop of leveling trials to be even able to post here?

9 Likes
103

Premonition goes against the stated design intent for hero talents in multiple ways in that it will feel required through either real or imagined social pressure and places an overly complex mental burden on the player.

It also doesn’t feel particularly evocative of the core concept, so even if the tuning upon release is so unimpactful that the choice is just down to which flavour you prefer, the flavour of the ability is not the same as what’s written on the package that’s selling it to you.

I would prefer to see both the keystone and the capstone scrapped in favour of something completely different as I don’t see anything salvageable either conceptually or mechanically.

10 Likes
104

Bring Divine Insight back for holy priest. That is all.

1 Like
105

In case it is not obvious, a major thing that should be kept in mind when designing these Hero Path talent trees is the fact that they are specifically designed to exclude an entire spec (aside from Druid and demon hunter).

This means that the focus should be more along the lines of going crazy and adding things that the excluded spec should not have access too.

Power Infusion is already annoying to deal with as Shadow because of the existence of twins. If the functionality of twins is not going away, then just move it outright into Oracle exclusively.

Voidweaver can focus more on Mind Spells as the bridge between Discipline and Shadow while excluding Holy as that makes the most sense.
These can open up Discipline to have access to Mind Flay replacing Smite for a duration (perhaps during Dark Covenant) and Flash Heal replaced with Shadow Mend.

Archon can focus more on Psychic spells or psionic spells which would connect and amplify damage / healing done by direct spells to targets with our periodic spells on them.
The central spell theme could rally behind the Shadow Word: Death and Power Word: Life (Should be renamed back to Holy Word: Life tbh) and how they behave and interact with targets affected by Shadow Word: Pain and Renew.

Maybe I’m the odd one here, but ever since the PW:GFY post in DF beta, it seems to me that the main issue is granting all 3 specs access to the same type of spells was a major reason why a lot of requests were shot down.

So it seems that adding in the requested spells should easily be handled by directly in a specs talent tree or in a shared hero path if only 2 specs should be it or in the class tree if all specs should get it.

Not entertaining that now accessible knob of control would be a missed opportunity.

1 Like
106

Been thinking on the new tree since it was announced and this is coming from someone who loves the supporty stuff that holy priest has and was hoping one of the hero talent trees would be more support oriented.

I very much do not like the idea of a cycling buff, would much rather have something more deterministic similar to Fae Guardians from Shadowlands back. I actually loved that spell and liked how it functioned.

Speaking on Fae Guardians, some specs could FEEL their CD coming back faster. Symbol of Hope, some tanks could FEEL their major defensive come back sooner. Power Infusion makes certain specs FEEL great for that moment that it’s up.

Looking at Oracle, as someone who loves those meaningful player buffs, I don’t think if I increase my mage friend’s damage by 10%… He won’t feel that. If I increase his haste during combust/arcane surge, he FEELS that. The mana regen one is the only one that looks good, that will help me help healers in raid and I like that.

In short, I’m looking to make my friend’s gameplay FEEL better BECAUSE I’m there. And 10% damage increase, or increasing healing received, doesn’t do that. Give me some buffs to give my friends that they can feel!

5 Likes
107

The more I read the feedback and the more I think about it, the more I’m inclined to agree that this should some iteration of fae guardians. I just can’t picture a situation where I’m using the healing increase or mana return buff, it will always always always be a damage through put.

And since I don’t know which buff the rotating shuffle will start on, I can’t always know when I need to start cycling to time the buff I want. This seems counter intuitive for a theme and hero spec where you’re supposed to be rewarded for anticipation and planning ahead.

108

First off, I’d like to have a word on the design intent behind this hero talent tree. The buff idea behind premonitions makes sense as a thematic thing, but below I’m going to break down why it doesn’t work in the way it’s presented here. I don’t think the idea behind buffing people is inherently bad as something to focus on in this tree and I’d like to focus on how you could achieve this with a more interesting tree that isn’t miserable to play with. I will break down the tree talent by talent, starting with Premonitions itself. After that I will give my general thoughts on the tree and potentially better design directions for it.

Premonitions
You’ve gotten the feedback on this loud and clear- the cycling gameplay here is a very unfun minigame. We want to be able to press the button, effect goes off. Done. No reason not to just have this give the target all 3 effects. 25% healing, 10% damage, done. Tune the numbers if needed. If it’s too strong on disc, make the damage modifier not effect atonement healing. The balance concerns here are frankly irrelevant compared to how awful it would feel to press this ability in its current iteration. Furthermore, it sucks to have a hero talent tree so focused on buffing other people. When picking up a talent, you want to get stronger. Any time this is stronger/more viable than the alternative tree, you are miserable to have to play the talents that don’t make you as strong as the alternative.

Preventative Measures
This talent seems fine. PW:Shield number might wanna be buffed a little, if tuned right this could be one of the talents that actually makes oracle an interesting choice for disc for if you want to spec into a more shield-focused playstyle.

Assured Safety
Same as preventative measures, this talent can be a tuning knob to make shield and PoM-focused playstyles an option with this tree (by increasing the number of PoM stacks from shield or changing the shield % when pressing PoM)

Grand Reveal
A lot of people have been focusing on the tuning here. I don’t think tuning is the biggest issue with this one. The problem is you want to line up premonitions with people’s cooldowns, and this talent makes premonitions less reliable. I don’t think it would be fun to get stacks of premonition at a time when you can’t really make good use of it. Instead of giving an extra charge of Premonitions, it might be more fun to make the next Premonitions give the priest an additional bonus. x seconds of an innervate effect, for example. This would help fix the problem of this tree being too focused on helping other people- reward the priest. Furthermore, if you intend for disc to start pressing PoM, it should not apply atonement (we don’t want more complex ramp sequences) and it should count towards CDR with Void Summoner.

Preemptive Care
There’s not much to talk about here, I think this just a nice little bonus effect. Likely feels pretty good/noticeable for disc.

Prompt Deliverance
As much as I think this is fine for a filler node, I think it would be more appreciated to change this to a node that reduces the cast time of Mass Dispel. Ever since the removal of Improved Mass Dispel, MD has felt a lot worse to cast and I think I speak for a lot of priests when I say. The tuning problem with MD in DF S2 was never the cast time, it was the CD. If this node is going to be a negligible utility effect, it would be nice to have it make a button more fun to press. Pressing a dispel button off cooldown is not fun at 8 seconds, it’ll be less fun at 6.

Divine Feathers
This is honestly a horrifying node to see. The reasons for this were already outlined in the interview, but I think it’s worth noting here that the reason we don’t like the idea of giving other people our feathers is because our own mobility suffers so much that we prefer to use a macro to use it on ourselves. You could make it give the priest 100% of the effect on-cast instead, regardless of where it was placed. This would in most cases encourage the priest to give it to someone else without any risk of losing their own feather or delaying it, while also, in niche circumstances, allowing us to place it ahead of ourselves so we pick up a feather as the initial one (from this talent) fades. Gameplay-wise, I still prefer the macro as an option where I don’t have to think about positioning the feather and would rather if the idea of giving feathers to other people was abandoned- you could instead make this give feather an increased ~5-10% movement speed.

Perfect Vision
This is a dead node. I don’t see a solution. Maybe reducing the CD of PW:Shield and PoM by ~1 sec? Holy priests might not like PoM being stronger by too large an amount.

Versatile Divinations
Make this always give both effects, increased on the priest with sun priestess (to, once again, make the overall tree feel good to pick for the priest) and perhaps, if it’s a balancing concern, not giving mana to arcane mages. If it’s not guaranteed then premonitions is weaker than PI and you’re talenting into having a weaker ability.

Waste No Time
This effect is nice, mostly just on Radiance, but it should give 2 stacks (with sun priestess) that last until consumed. In a raid fight this would cover a decent percentage of our ramps (depending on the fight). You should also not be afraid to tune this to where a disc priest can have instant radiances for a whole fight if they’re using premonition at least close to off-CD. That kind of tuning would also make it feel nice to holy. You can always tune the mana to not make this too strong.

Miraculous Recovery
If Waste No Time ends up in a good spot, I don’t see a need for this choice node.

Foreseen Circumstances
Nice filler node.

Divine Providence
Further increased duration on the priest.

Fatebender
If I have to do this level of micro-management with my “PI”, I am quitting priest. The idea of swapping around who you’re putting it on is miserable and is the same reason augmentation evokers complain about their raid gameplay. Just change this to be premonition’s effect increased on the casting priest.

Clairvoyance
The list of issues with this talent is endless, but let me list a few:

  • A proc like this feels terrible, and with how random it is, is not very good.
  • Having to position around the potential of getting proc buffs is extremely unfun gameplay for everyone involved (including the priest). See aug evokers.
  • Low-impact for its position in the tree.
  • Doubles down on everything wrong with this tree.
    *Low-impact for effort.

This is the worst node in the tree and should not exist in any iteration.

Ideas for a complete redesign of the tree
Really, I have 3 ideas for how this tree could go. The worst of them is keeping this tree in any way- even with all the changes I’ve suggested. The reason I wrote something on each node and suggested changes for them is to give the devs an idea of why this tree is badly designed, why we don’t like it and suggest general design directions for the future.

The second idea is another buff-based tree, this time with the already suggested fae guardians idea. You can still call the ability “Premonitions”, you send out 3 premonitions, 1 follows your PW:Shield for a DR, 1 follows your PoM for a mana gain, 1 follows your flash heal for CDR. These work with sun priestess, it does not replace PI, and they’re all individually low-impact (adding up to high-impact for the priest). Choice nodes would let you either customize the buffs to some extent or give you small bonuses while active (for example, a node where your shield target builds an absorb on either you or yourself when taking damage, or a mana tick giving you a chance to get a proc to make some abilities instant-cast, CDR giving extra CDR towards either feather or life grip).

The final idea is one you likely already have in development: One that’s simply focused on abilities like PW:Shield, renew, PoM, etc.

As a final word I wanna say this is all my own personal opinions, have not shared these with anyone, willing to admit if I’ve missed the mark on some of this (unsure how people in general feel about the fae guardians idea, for example).

3 Likes
109

This sums up my thoughts very well. I’m holy-exclusive on my priest, and while I’m not objectively against Holy getting more support based options, the actual implementation and options we are given with Premonition are lackluster, and the RNG aspect of Clairvoyance make the ability to control their utility something completely out of our hands. And the notes about the actual talents between the node and capstone being much stronger for Disc than having anything to do with Holy gameplay is spot on.

I really don’t like this as it stands. Someone else said above that “your class but more” doesn’t apply here because I am more than a PI dispenser, and I agree with that as well. I’m happy I’m in an AOTC guild, because I can see no path that I would take this Hero class as it currently stands, and I’m only hoping Archon offers something that feels more healing focused.

1 Like
110

As a Holy Priest, I don’t have the bandwidth to manage a slot machine or this new PI 2.0. It doesn’t sound fun or intuitive or PUG friendly. DPS are already arguing about who should get PI. Why double down on such a contentious ability? I would rather the ability just go away.

The Priest does not receive any credit for PI in logs in the current state of the game. How will we know the impact of using Premonition? The developers haven’t figured out all the Augmentation hooks. What are the chances Premonition gets better treatment?

I don’t think I will feel like a hero with this group of talents. Discipline Priests don’t seem thrilled either. Can the developers please try again? If not, my fingers are crossed until the Archon talents are revealed.

It’s a shame they couldn’t find ONE holy priest for the interview. Disappointing. :frowning:

4 Likes
111

Also agree strongly with this one. I was pretty meh on Guardians in Slands, but it’s a much better iteration of buffs and support than as currently stands.

112

Not sure if this was answered but how would a +10% physical/magical damage bonus apply to pet classes like Hunters and Warlocks?

1 Like
113

ORACLE KEYSTONE

Premonition: Divine the future, and gain access to a spell that gives you an advantage against your fate. Replaces Power Infusion. Instant Cast. Provides Solace and either Insight or Glory based on your target’s primary stat. Hold to enter a trance to predict the future of the group providing Prophecy.

  • Solace: Increases your target’s healing received by 50% for 10 seconds.
  • Insight: Increases your targets magic damage dealt by 20% for 10 seconds.
  • Glory: Increases your target’s physical damage dealt by 20% for 10 seconds.
  • Prophecy: Increases your group’s movement speed by 50% for 10 seconds and turns 2% of their damage as a dot doing holy damage.

**Note: The PI talent that gives you 100% of the effects will have to be changed for oracle.

114

So if the entire Oracle theme is about seeing the future and making moves to correctly navigate through it, it stands to reason to implement a mechanism to allow this future sight to be apparent and make sense.

But how would you achieve this feeing of dealing with something that hasn’t happened yet?

That is when I look at the talent that Death Knights have…

Purgatory
An unholy pact that prevents fatal damage, instead absorbing incoming healing equal to the damage prevented, lasting 3 sec.
If any healing absorption remains when this effect expires, you will die. This effect may only occur every 4 min.

This talent prevents death by relying on the future.

So how could this be translated into a form fit for Oracle?

  • Option #1
    Empower Renew to absorb damage up to the maximum amount of the remaining renew healing amount which expires after 3-6 seconds and then deals any remaining damage absorbed to the target if during that window, you didn’t heal the target with your other more powerful heals.

This could have a visualization that maybe only the Oracle priest sees and essentially bakes in a damage absorption into Renew which benefits both Holy and Discipline. Holy renews would be more powerful and thus absorb more incoming damage and discipline has supplemental damage absorbs.

  • Option #2
    50% of any excess healing will be converted into a damage absorb shield over the next 10 seconds.

Simple and perhaps overpowered. Any healing done beyond the max health of target will absorb incoming damage from the future.

Other ideas…

  • Pythian Sight
    When you dispel a magic debuff from a target, you heal them for 20% of the total damage remaining.

Tweak numbers as needed.

But the goal would be to prevent damage done in the future by acting in the preset.

Having spells that actively take into consideration future incoming damage and preventing it in some manner, shape or form.

3 Likes
115

I’d forgotten that lightsmith also exists for paladins. So not only do we have them buffing people with armaments, we’ve got Aug doing their thing and now us with this.

Stacking modifiers on stacking modifiers etc. It’s going to be a mess and I imagine we’ll probably see more of this with other hero talent trees.

2 Likes
116

Speaking as a Holy priest, I like the theme you’re going for, since it’s something that’s not direct healing, but I feel this misses a few key points with Premonition.

First: it misses the theme completely. The buffs provided don’t have a feeling of “I saw something,” nor do they feel unique.

Second: I don’t know of anyone who likes the slot machine mechanics, as they take control out of the players hands. They also add extra cognitive load to a game that already automates as much as possible via Weakauras in order to focus on gameplay.

Third: they aren’t compelling. With playing my Assassination rogue, either of the DPS buffs would only affect half of my damage, making it something I felt, but not in an amazing way.

My suggestion would be to make it a 1 minute single button that changes by role of it’s target.
For tanks: +20% healing received, and X% CDR on their abilities
For DPS: 5% damage bonus, and X% avoidance
For healers: 5% main stat and X% mana restoration

This would be an effective CD for each role, fit thematically, and when Clairvoyance popped provide a massively felt bonus to your whole group.

I appreciate you all for pushing the envelope immensely, but if this gets implemented as is, I’ll play the other tree, and it’s not even out yet for preview.
Light’s blessings be upon you.

1 Like
117

I find playing aug evoker more stressful than healing because of the buff and uptime management. I don’t even like to press and manage PI as a priest. Healing is already stressful enough in its own right, I would prefer not having to micromanage an additional buff. I also don’t really like a player’s performance relying on being the target of a buff, whether it’s deserved or not.

I am not saying I love all the other talents in this tree, but if both trees for a class are undesirable options, rather than dealing with bad capstones, we have to take a bad main hero talent (and no way to revert to the old spell) to get all the ones below it. At least in Shadowlands, this style of talent tree (covenant conduits) had four options to choose from rather than two, allowing you to choose a playstyle you enjoy, and mix and match class conduits in the chosen tree giving more flexibility. (I know there were some issues with this system, too, though.)

The one bonus is that it replaces a button rather than adding a new one, but requires more management and pressing of that button. The new hunter tree added a new active talent, which I don’t like either. It’s possible that we can’t win, either way, with the way these talents are being designed.

2 Likes
118

Stewing on this more, I think what I’m confused about is what exactly classifies this as a ‘hero’ talent. When I think of a heroic priest moment in WoW, I think of something like the Battle for Azeroth cinematic where Anduin turns the tides of battle with a powerful heal that brings his allies back from the brink of defeat, rallying them. Or Whitemane resurrecting her champion.

Sure, Velen sure has visions, but when I think of the apex of being a priest, of the defining fantasy heroes I aspire to as a priest, him standing around talking about a vision he had as plot exposition isn’t… really thrilling in the way I imagine a hunter finally being able to be a Dark Ranger or a monk becoming a Shado-Pan is for those classes.

So, I admit I’m confused why the heroic combination of our two healing specs isn’t a heroic fantasy that’s centered around valiantly safeguarding our allies and is instead a fiddly buff micromanagement slot machine minigame where the priest is considered an afterthought to the benefits of their own abilities.

It just feels like we’re being treated as nothing more than walking vehicles for Power Infusion that can have a few token healing nodes as a treat and that doesn’t feel ‘heroic’. That doesn’t feel like the eagerly anticipated endpoint of my leveling next expansion. That doesn’t feel like the apex of what being a priest is for me. It just feels disappointing.

I don’t necessarily mind Power Infusion, but I don’t really see the results of that. I’m happy for my friends when they do big damage, but it’s hard to look at that big damage and say ‘I did that,’ because I didn’t. That was all them. I helped. But I don’t feel satisfaction the way I feel when I’m healing. When I drag someone back from the brink of death, I feel that. That feels good and like a reflection of my own ability. I cannot say the same for buffs.

I’m also not sure where the ‘Oracle’ aspect of this ability is really coming in. I wouldn’t really say I’m “gaining insight into the future” by pressing the same two buffs on cooldown. I’d say for a ‘premonition’-like ability, I’d want to pre-emptively shield allies from harm at the right moment or have some Inscrutable Quantum Device-esque mechanic where the effect of the button changes depending on what’s happening around me and I’m waiting for the stars to align for the right moment to act. Not a more tedious Power Infusion.

10 Likes
119

I’m hoping the overwhelming amount of negative feedback makes them completely change this.

If not then healing priests, especially holy, are going to be praying that our other hero tree is actually good because this is dead on arrival.

17 Likes
120

Agreed. This tree as it stands is all the bad parts of wildfire bomb, blessing of seasons, and roll the bones wrapped into a package others depend on for not dying.

Randomness does NOT belong in a healer kit at this scale!

Honestly if this becomes the tree, the only Holy spec I’ll play will be pink, not white.

4 Likes
121

Personally I think I would prefer if the cycling through buffs did not exist in the way it is currently presented.

Alternatives
-Buff is based on your target (no control).
-A second spell that lets you control what buff is used. Maybe it cycles to the next one with every key press? It would continue to use the same buff until/unless you change the selection.
-Maybe you get to configure each buff with a keybind. This would be a “temporary” keybind that overwrites your normal keybind temporarily when PI is used. For example if you chose 1-5 it would be like this: PI → then press 1-5 to select buff.

My preference would be the middle option.

This new version of PI also makes the casting priest’s twin buff complicated.