Feedback on the 11.0.5 Class tree (A.K.A, can we keep the original Class tree please?)

Classes Paladin
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As holy paladin, the 11.0.5 is a mess from a PvE perspective. Since 10.0.0, the changes made are just terribly designed and replacing 1 bad talent for another equally as bad in most scenarios. In some of them, even worse.

A Just Reward
Incredibly weak with current health pools. The amount of healing is around 2% of an HP bar of a DPS/healer. Not worth taking in any scenario, needs a major buff.

Empyreal Ward
Why is this here? This is a PvP talent at best.

** Fist of Justice **
A downgrade to current equivalent, and a more boring one at that. Only good thing is, its just 1 talent point now but almost nobody ever talented 2 points into it.

Holy Reprieve
Why is this here? This is a PvP talent at best x2

Divine Spurs
Weird talent with weird placement. Doesn’t really help Paladin movement speed issues.

Divine Reach
What is this? Why?

Sacrifice of the Just
I dont remember is this was nerfed with S2 Hpal nerfs or with TWW. Probably both. This talent is currently a dead talent for Hpal. Utility didnt make Hpal the best healer in M+, can we get this back to 1 min or at least be a 30 sec reduction?

Divine Toll and Divine Resonance/Quickened Resonance
Good positioning change I’ve seen, no changes here.

Echoing Blessings
As far as I know, this talent is bugged? The description has always said it gives increased movement speed/gives DR, AND the effect lingers after the effect is done, but echoing blessings only appears after the original buff is gone.

Lead the Charge
Doesn’t really help Paladin movement speed issues. A weak talent in current positioning.

Worthy Sacrifice
This is a noob trap. You want to use BoS before damage happens, not when the target pretty much dead already. Also, can even kill yourself if the target is stupid enough.

Blessed Calling/Holy Ritual/Righteous Protection
Why is this a talent? Why the emphasis on buffing other players movement speed and not youself. Guess you can use it in yourself with freedom/bop though.

3 points, not 1, not 2, 3 that makes our Blessings ‘better’, but they are underwhelming and mostly really niche/underpowered. Holy Ritual healing is basically non existent and even then, a boring talent nonetheless.

Inspired Guard
A nice little buff to our defensive? Not terribly bad but also not good. Mediocre at best.

Faith’s Armor
This talent should be moved to prot tree and replaced with something else entirely

Judgment of Light
Underpowered and passive.

Stoicism
PvP talent Why is this here?

Seal of the Crusader
At least its a 1 pointer now. Still terrible talent and passive with no impact at all.

Golden Path/Selfless Healer
Golden path has always been a really underpowered talent, Selfless healer in okaish for ret, and thanks god its nerfed for Hpal in comparison otherwise we would have a chance to fall again into a S3 DF casting Hpal meta maybe.

Eye for an Eye/light’s Revocation
Prot talent again in the class tree.

We are also losing good talents seal of alacrity which gives use 4% haste.

Current talent tree is not perfect by any means, but what is this?

2 Likes
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The new tree isn’t perfect, but its a pretty huge improvement over the existing one. The existing one has so many required throughput nodes that there is almost no choice. This one gives a lot of choice, even if some of those choices look a little underpowered currently.

I agree that most of the healing nodes are underpowered. They are all around a 100% spellpower heal. For reference (for ret at least), WoG is about 300% SP and still has to be propped up by healing hands to be worth pressing. However, many of the other nodes are really solid.

This is a massive external CD to give to your tanks.

The base CD of Fist is reduced to 45 seconds and with a single point can be 30. Any stun is situational, but could be useful.

Seasoned Warhorse is becoming passive. With this talent we can choose between a 5 second duration with 1 minute CD, or a 3 second duration with 48 second CD. TThat’s a good choice.

For raids and battlegrounds where people are more spread out.

Huh? BoSac is a 2 minute cooldown. This talent makes it a 1 minute CD. Is this not exactly what you’re asking for?

Agree that this one is weak.

I think this one is more to cover mistakes than as an actual cooldown. Pugs are always unpredictable, and with a 15 second death timer this may see use.

I like the idea of using blessings to save people and a heal, speed boost, and debuff protection can do that. I do agree that they are underpowered though.

Agreed.

It is situational to be sure, but stun reduction does have uses.

Agreed.

The only thing we are actually losing is 4% haste. Everything else that we are “losing” is being made a passive. That said, we are gaining the ability to pick up things at the same time that we currently have to choose between. Overall, I say its an absolute win.

The offhealing talents do feel a little underpowered, but there are a lot of them. They may all add up to being substantial if a player were to take all of them. I understand Blizz going light at first with the potential to buff them later.

1 Like
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It’s a better tree, flat out.
Albeit not perfect, but not nearly as broken as current.

There is way too much throughput in the current tree.
How are you gonna make 3 throughput Capstone and make it possible to take them all?

As Ret, taking all throughput nodes leaves me literally no point left.
Doing the same now leaves me with 4-5, finally there is breathing room.

Pretty much all of what Thunder is pointing out is correct.

One caveat, Eye for an eye might work well for Prot but this looks more like a PVP talent than a Prot talent.

Did you even bother to look up if it is (like testing it with numbers and stuff) or you’re just saying that because they aren’t cluttering the buff bar with a pointless icon?

I don’t know how you are reading this but it seems pretty clear to me that it give those additional effects whilst the blessing is active and for 8sec after the blessing ends.
Which doesn’t need to be shown by a second buff since its part of the blessing until it ends.

At which point it is warranted to see appear a slightly different buff to indicate those additional effect are still active.

1 Like
4

Empyreal ward for lightsmith pallies is super useful for PvE, since they can get the cooldown on LoH really low. As prot, it’s basically another defensive cooldown with a 30 sec duration attached. On a target dummy, at least with live talents, I can get LoH to about a 2 min cooldown. So that’s around a 25% uptime of doubled armor.

1 Like
5

Exactly and Light Revocation makes playing with other paladins much smoother as you won’t feel as bad to use a BoP or LoH on them knowing they can still bubble.

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This is my issue with the new talent tree. This is a niche use for tank healing only. Unless you are playing LS, LoH is 5 min-7min CD, and as an Hpal, chances are you will be using it to save a DPS.

PVP talent, again. No real use in PvE content. Which is incredibly worrisome, considering how many of the new talents have barely any real use for PvE and are PvP oriented. Or just oriented to a specific spec. This is a huge issue imho and will create problems down the road.

For holy paladin its not. Hpal Sacrifice of the Just cooldown reduction is just 15 seconds. This is not the case for Ret and Prot where the CDR is 1 min. I’m asking to reduce it for Hpal since this was a nerf targeted for Hpal only, back when it made sense.

Why should the fix to a specific interaction between multiple specs of the same class adding multiple talents in the class tree when you can fix it how it works baseline?
Forbearance as a whole is an outdated and flawed mechanic.

I’m not 100% sure with the DR, but I’m sure with the movement speed, I tested it. The buff only applies when the icon pops up, when Blessing of Freedom is already over.

7

I disagree. I can drop it on the tank if they are in a pinch. I can drop it on myself while solo if I do something stupid. I can even drop it on the healer that just butt pulled another pack. It has a lot of uses.

Since when are raids considered PVP? If you’re the only paladin in a raid then Divine Reach would be incredibly useful for spread fights.

According to the current 11.0.5 ptr Sacrifice of the just is a 60 second reduction for holy, too.

1 Like
8

It’s the point ain’t it though?

If all the throughput is put back baseline or in the spec tree, what’s left is creating more niche talent to tailor your gameplay to more specific situation.

Which is what the class tree should be in part.

Beside, it’s not like it was barring you from using it on anyone else, only when you do it on the tank, you’ll make him able to stabilise since the fact you had to use it on him pretty much meant things were getting dicey.

Good question.
My guess would be because they don’t want forbearance completely gone and it would be confusing to make such a specific interaction baseline.

People knowingly opting into it makes it so they understand why they can DS after using LoH or BoP but can’t use either if they use DS first.

10

Its a dps cooldown for Warriors. They have a talent that converts 10% of their armor into strength.

Unless Blizzard have changed it to not affect bonus armor. Empyreal Ward is a ~8% dps increase to use on a warrior.

1 Like
11

This is not the case btw. If you are looking at the wowhead talent calculator for 11.0.5, its not being properly displayed for Holy. It’s just 15 secs the same way as retail.

Same for selfless healer, it’s only 10% on PTR but the talent calculator shows 30%/40%.

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45 second without, 36 seconds with. At max level.

1 Like
13

You are correct- I was off on the base CD. Still a fair choice with seasoned warhorse being baseline.

Then I see where you’re coming from with that being pretty useless for holy. The rest of the tree is an upgrade, though. Give it a chance. If nothing else the flexibility will be nice.

14

I think it’s strength lies more on other talents it synergizes with, such as templars hero talent and steed of liberty.

I was thinking this might be pretty strong in something…

BG’s.

Sometimes there is too many tjings going on in bg’s for you to worry around yourself when your being attacked, so an auto utility, specially one with a heal tied to it, can be useful to have around.

1 Like
15

It could be very strong with those to be sure. Its exactly what an optional node in the class tree should be- useful for some and skippable for the rest.

Especially when you can talent it to make them immune to diseases and poisons. Would really put a damper on rogues and DKs trying to snipe your healer.

1 Like
16

This is a total bummer. Was hoping to get 1 min Sac back.

1 Like
17

This puts another thought in my head, if steed of liberty is effected by the poison/disease immunity, which gives 2 charges of freedom indirectly (base freedom is having 1 charge in 11.0.5) this would support spurs more along with the random target of unbound.

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Mmhm. Also people have been asking for BoF to be dispel immune for a while- as far as I’m aware Divine Steed cannot be dispelled.

1 Like
19

I think it will be a seperate buff still. But at 3 seconds duration it would be a waste of a global to dispell it.

20

Culling the throughput talents are good.

My only real concern is how, from a Holy perspective, most of the new talents either dont matter at all or are objectively bad.

They seem well and good for Prot and Ret. But having things like Selfless Healer only being a 10% buff to casted spells for Holy certainly makes it feel like the intention was making the class tree work better for Ret and Prot and Holy would just make due with HotS being cracked.

1 Like
21

Every time I see a ret/prot not using the ability on every pull despite having it talented I die a little bit inside. 2 min Sac feels so bad :frowning: