Feedback: MM Hunter 11.1

Classes Hunter
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I wanted to post this in the PTR Hunter Feedback category but for some reason it wouldn’t let me reply or make a new topic there, so I’m posting this here.

Idk about you guys, but I’m very disappointed with the coming changes to MM, mainly the removal of Wailing Arrow, Wind Arrows, and Barrage. If you can’t tell by my Char name, I’ve always been a fan of Sylvanas and I’ve always tried my best to make my hunter as close to her as I possibly could. In this regard, TWW has been great to say the least, and I’m very happy with the current state of MM talents. Not only did we get Dark Ranger as a Hero Spec, with Sylvanas’ signature banshee effects added to Trueshot, but we even got an official Sylvanas outfit from the Trading Post… I couldn’t be anymore satisfied with the way MM is played right now, seriously, you really hit the nail on the head Blizz. I can’t tell you how happy you’ve made me.

But now… for some unimaginable reason, you’ve decided to completely gut the Dark Ranger fantasy by removing our Wailing Arrow and Wind Arrows entirely, leaving us only with Black Arrows, among other issues I will go into soon… I’m sorry Blizz, but what the hell are you doing? Why did you give Dark Rangers everything we wanted, only to take it away in less than a year? If this and the pet removal fiasco are anything to go by, then clearly the person in charge of hunter design has absolutely no idea what they’re doing…

As someone who plays MM spec almost exclusively, you should know that Wailing Arrow was easily the most fun part of MM. Initially when you removed it as an active ability I was unsure how I felt, but having it replace Aimed Shot when you either build up enough Wind Arrows or cast Trueshot was a very clever idea to reduce button bloat, and using it at an optimal time while inheriting all the benefits that Aimed Shot would receive was extremely effective and satisfying, especially when you get to use two Wailing arrows in rapid succession. Even the Wind Arrows themselves felt good, like they were auxiliary missiles when we cast Aimed Shot.

I honestly don’t see why MM is being reworked at all, you finally got it in a good spot, and I DO NOT want to lose it… However, I can understand why the Dark Ranger themed abilities might be kind of out of place within the MM tree itself, and if that’s the case just add the current functionality of Wind Arrows to the Dark Ranger talents, but for the love of god do not change how things are currently working with Wind/Wailing Arrows like I described above…

Overall, aside from the DR stuff, the new ‘streamline’ changes to MM feel… boring, and weird. First of all, MM is supposed to be like a sniper with careful aim (Long Cast - High Payoff) so why are we trying to turn Aimed Shot into a machine gun? If I want to shoot fast I’ll use Rapid Fire/Barrage. Speaking of which, you had just added a talent that changes Barrage into multiple Rapid Fires instead, which was awesome and powerful. I had never liked Barrage as an ability until recently, and now you’re removing that too… And imo, having streamline activate from so many other abilities makes Rapid Fire feel a lot less important, and therefore less rewarding. Basically, nothing in the new rotation feels unique or interesting, except maybe the stuff with explosive shot, and even that isn’t that great. MM might be stronger now, idk if it actually is or not, I’m assuming it is, but I can tell you that it’s def a lot less enjoyable.

I know you’re probably going to ignore this Blizz, but I honestly think you guys just need to leave MM alone. As it stands, I don’t have any desire to play my hunter with the way you’re planning to change things, which is honestly very heartbreaking considering that you just got done making it so much fun. Please reconsider this rework, preferably in the Recycle Bin…

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Wailing arrow never felt good this season, it wasn’t affected by trueshots cast time reduction, it’s was only ever used in single target builds and its utility was awful since it was never an on demand silence and with a slow projectile speed. And barrage hasn’t been used seriously for 4 expansions, even when they made a talent that made rapid fire barrage it was not good or worth the talent points. Now barrage being put into hunter tree would be fine as it’s only good purpose is mass clearing old content.

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Saying it never felt good is like, just your opinion man, and I’m confident that you’re in the minority with that one… And I’m 95% sure that Wailing Arrow does in fact benefit from Trueshot, bc it definitely has it’s cast time reduced, but either way I said it inherited the benefits of Aimed Shot, Streamline at the very least.

Not only do I disagree with that statement, but you make it sound as if single target builds are uncommon, or having a skill that’s better for a specific build type is somehow a bad thing… That’s like saying Blizz should remove Multi-Shot bc it’s only ever used for AoE builds. FYI, single target builds are quite common, as well as hybrid builds for things like questing and non-sweaty gameplay.

We can agree to disagree that the projectile is slow, but it is def an on demand skill, by activating Trueshot… It may not always line up with burn phases, but the silence isn’t really the important part of the skill. I’ll admit it was more useful when we had it as a separate ability with a lower CD, but an AoE silence in itself is actually pretty OP, which is why they removed it from PvP, and from the original Blood Elf racial ability Arcane Torrent for that matter, so I’m just glad we have access to an AoE silence in any capacity. It’s basically just the icing on the cake.

And yes, I know barrage hasn’t been useful, like ever, but you’re objectively wrong that Rapid Fire Barrage is not good. If you use it during Trick Shots, especially with Volley, it became one of the highest AoE skill combos in the game, hands down. All three of the Rapid Fires during Barrage would ricochet to 3-7 additional targets depending on if you used Heavy/Light ammo or not, and it would absolutely shred them.

Even if everything I said was wrong, I’m sure most Dark Ranger players would prefer that Blizz try to rework Wailing Arrow instead of just removing one of it’s most iconic skills… Idrc what it does honestly, I just want to have fun and look cool doing it.

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I like wailing arrow too, but It’s Black Arrow bugging me more right now.

On live, Black Arrow feels good. It’s a rewarding and fun button press that can hit like a truck…

On PTR, Black Arrow feels like a wet noodle that interupts the flow of marksman.

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Needs moar dps

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Yeah it does, my other DPS pulled a bit ahead of Marksman so far on PTR. Hopefully they do a tuning pass. Otherwise…

  • Really not digging the Streamline mechanic. I don’t like the “windup” feel to it. Wasn’t a windup fan with Multi-Shot → Trickshot. Not digging it here either.

  • Once you get cooking with Streamline, pressing things that aren’t Aimed Shot, like Black Arrow, starts to feel much worse.

  • I don’t like that we were nerfed to accommodate that new mechanic, whose purpose is to counteract our nerf. Unnecessary seems like an understatement.

  • Lock and Load both gets hurt by the slower auto shots and feels less worthwhile versus full streamlined Aimed shot.

  • Really like the auto-cleave talent. Having fun with that.

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Right, that was one thing I forgot to add that was really bugging me. The slower Auto Shots are counterproductive to getting Lock and Load, just like Precise Shots used to be counterproductive during Trueshot, as there was almost never a reason to use up a GCD slot on Arcane Shots (especially two of them) bc your Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire were already off CD. They just can’t help themselves can they…

And yeah I agree, I felt that too… Even the one last Dark Ranger ability we have left became unsatisfying, it’s basically just a glorified Arcane/Multi Shot now. None of our abilities really stand out among the rest or feel exciting to use, except maybe Volley or Explosive Shot.

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Get creative and don’t make a copy of an NPC ? Sorry I just had to say it

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I don’t know what ptr yall are playing but black arrow with Windrunner quiver is a tactical nuke. So is aimed shot in general.

You have to think/manage more with the rotation and there are definitely tuning issues. Various things like withering fire, lock and load/bleak arrows proc mechanics need to be further developed. The direction is fantastic though. The spec can be a lot better in the long run with more depth to it. It’s overall less straightforward but that’s not a bad thing.

  • make bleak arrows and lnl rppm instead of direct %chance to proc now that auto is slow.
  • Replace withering fire with readiness wailing arrow
  • Do something else for the negative component of marks RoS

Imo these are the main issues left to be addressed. Once you get used to playing it, it’s quite fun. It is going to have to get a substantial amount of further +damage tuning to be competitive which will only make it more fun. There’s also now a PvP talent that lets you cast aimed while moving in cheetah, and another one that gives you sniper shot range when you press the same buttons that give you double tap. The burst is already insane despite the fact that it needs buffs.

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I kind of think it is a bad thing.

The challenge of a game should come from content, not from making characters more of an annoying pain to effectively control. Controls for most classes should be pretty straight forward.

A handful should have more complex interactions when it’s thematically relevant to cater to that crowd. Think Mage or Rogue.

Keep in mind, much of the WoW player base now falls in the 30-55 yr range.

**

I mean, there is a reason that people use sims, addons, and guides to just tell them what specs to run, or what gear to get, or to simplify and assist with gameplay decisions. That a pretty heavy handed search through third party sources just to make things more straightforward.

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Hey thats me!

The new spec isn’t rocket science. It is less straightforward than live marks.

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Exact same gear.

On live my max crit black arrow was 2.6m dmg in 10min vs training dummy.

On PTR the max crit was 1.33m dmg in 10m vs the same training dummy with spending for the Windrunner Quiver talent.

It just feels wet noodle(ish) to me.

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Seems like a -50% aura debuff?

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Questionable.

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I have plenty of unique chars/mogs, but I’ll play however I like, thanks.

Also, not sure if you’ve noticed, but nearly everything we have as players in WoW is based off of NPCs… It’s kind of a core audience fantasy to be like them, especially the main lore chars. Hence why we have things like the Blood Troll outfit or the new Vrykrul stuff just to name a couple, or how about literally any of the weapons we use…

And up until relatively recently, mogging your character to look like lore chars could get quite challenging and required a lot of creativity. That’s actually something I was kinda sad about when the Sylvanas outfit dropped, bc now I could no longer show off the creativity of my own Sylvanas mog, and now EVERYBODY and their mother can wear it…

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I vote less simplicity. The possibility of High Level play should exist in the MM spec, if for no other reason than to marvel at what some players can do!

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Hey, if the RPer that want’s to pretend to be a character from the lore wants certain things I’m all for it. Load it up.

There is a real problem with MM right now. It’s single target damage is absolutely garbage tier. I’d vote for fixing that first then helping Sylvanace pretend harder to be Sylvanas.

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I have to wonder what gear you’re using to come to this conclusion.

I’m confused. If the burst is insane why does it need buffs? Lol

Thank you… This is almost all I want, aside from the Wind Arrow build up to another Wailing. “It just works” so well, and it keeps the rotation interesting and rewarding. And Rapid Fire Barrage… but I can live without it, 2/3 is acceptable. Not sure why we even need to negotiate with Blizz to begin with, but here we are…

This is my main concern with how people are looking at these changes:

Damage =/= Fun (not by itself anyway)

If that was the case, I would just play whatever class is the Flavor-of-The-Month… No, I choose to play a class based on how the abilities and animations make me feel, and as I said, they’ve taken some of our favorite abilities away completely and made the remaining feel like a blur, imo…

Ofc damage is important too, but it’s secondary to what makes a class unique and actually interesting and fun to play. Classes are not defined by their damage, or at least they shouldn’t be if the people in charge of balancing are actually doing their jobs.

Like I said in my OP, I may not like the new rotation and I’ve given my reasons why, but I honestly don’t really give af, just give me my fav fantasy abilities back… There’s no reason these new changes can’t co-exist with them, and if anything, that would solve this damage issue you’re talking about. Wailing Arrow alone was a huge DPS boost.

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The gear currently equipped on this character. You are not using headshot and or not using procs with two stacks of precise if yours are smaller on ptr.

Because you run out of charges 20-30 seconds after trueshot is over and have a significant amount of “dead time”.

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I am deliveryin the msg from 15 yrs Chinese MM hunter player disappoint and suggestion:
Hello,
The 11.1 patch is just two weeks away online. In recent media evaluations, my favorite spec, Marksmanship Hunter, has once again been ranked at the bottom of all specializations. As a 15-year veteran of WoW, it’s incredibly disheartening to see my preferred specialization underperform for multiple consecutive seasons. I have many suggestions for the class balance team regarding Marksmanship Hunter adjustments, and I hope the design team will consider them.

The Marksmanship talent tree has been reworked in the 11.1 patch, which has somewhat alleviated its underperformance. However, Marksmanship Hunters still struggle significantly in dual-target and 10+ target scenarios. I believe the choice between Trick Shots and Hydra’s Bite is poorly designed. My suggestion is to make Trick Shots an innate ability for Marksmanship Hunters and replace the current choice node with a new talent: casting Multi-Shot grants Trick Shots, and the number of targets hit by Trick Shots is increased by 2 (similar to the old Light Ammo talent).
Currently, Marksmanship Hunters face severe Focus management issues. During Trueshot, we even have to rely on Steady Shot to regenerate Focus. I think Precise Shots was over-nerfed on February 13th. The Focus cost reduction of Precise Shots should be around 50%, and Windrunner’s Quiver could allow Precise Shots to stack its Focus cost reduction effect, with each stack reducing Focus consumption by 35%.
The bottom row of the Marksmanship talent tree is overly bloated. The 2-point Eagle Eye talent in the bottom-left corner feels like filler. It would be more reasonable to change Eagle Eye from increasing the damage of Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire by 2.5%/5% to increasing the application chance of Marking Targets by 7.5%/15%. As for Bullseye in the bottom-right corner, I think it should only require 1 talent point. This would free up a point for Marksmanship Hunters to invest in Bullet Hell, making the Double Tap talent more competitive.

Finally, Wind of Ohn’ahra is completely ineffective. This talent has been buggy since its introduction. I suggest replacing it with an active ability: the next three Multi-Shots apply Marking Targets to up to 3 targets, with a 45-second cooldown.

As for raids, after the nerf to Precise Shots and the bug fixes to Hydra’s Bite, Marksmanship Hunter’s single-target damage has become arguably the worst in the game. Therefore, I believe the design team should boldly buff the Marksmanship specialization.

These are my suggestions for improving the Marksmanship Hunter talent tree. I hope the design team will consider them.
Regarding Dark Ranger, in the 11.1 patch, the new Marksmanship talent tree is built around Aimed Shot. However, the Black Arrow system of Dark Ranger is lacking both numerically and in terms of talent synergy. First, the damage of Kill Shot and Black Arrow is problematic. Without any synergy, Kill Shot deals less damage than Arcane Shot, which makes me question its purpose on the Marksmanship Hunter action bar. As for the Headshot talent, its numbers are too low, making it uncompetitive compared to other talents. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to buff it so that Kill Shot benefits from a 100% damage bonus from Precise Shots. Additionally, if Marksmanship Hunters could gain a talent that makes Kill Shot grant Trick Shots (a talent removed in Dragonflight), Dark Ranger might become more viable.