… except Blizzard isn’t removing pets, they’re removing player choice. MM is still a pet spec, it’s just that the only pet is an eagle, regardless of what your preference is.
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I think I understand what you said but I stand by what I said in disagreement with the other persons post. They said bascially MM needed a pet to function and removing it would gimp the nspec however MM has only used the pet for utility and sometimes not even that in group content when other players could cover it so the pet after lone wolf would provide utility at the cost of damage so the first interaction of blizzards lone ranger approach to the spec was cluncky at best and remained so for a long time now at least we are seeing that utility returning to the player without need for the pet which represents a better interaction albeit at the cost of those who enjoyed the pet playstile despite the output loss. Hopefully we find a middle ground but I stand by what I said
If you play test in the PTR you will notice that the way they implemented the eagle is really a small proc visual effect barelly noticeble not at all akin to the old pet interaction MM had which is, in itself, a point of contend for those who mostly play solo and enjoy using their pets. Blizzard IS removing the way MM had access to pets this is a fact.
Hi! A follow-up post with a few additional bugs that have since been discovered.
- Within the 11.1 development notes -
“Withering Fire now triggers from casting Black Arrow during Bestial Wrath and no longer auto-fires Black Arrow instead of gaining Deathblow.” - This has not been updated on PTR other than making Black Arrow not auto-fire - Dire Frenzy is supposed to increase the duration of Dire Beasts by 1/2 seconds. Despite The Bear from Howl of the Pack Leader benefiting from other Dire Beast talents, it does not last 2 seconds longer when talented into Dire Frenzy.
- Lead from the Front is supposed to increase the damage of your How of the Pack pets by 25%. This does not currently include the melee hits from The Bear pet.
- The Season 2 Tier Set is largely not functional, to summarize:
- The free Barbed Shot does not deal 200% damage.
- Casting Bestial Wrath does not trigger a Jackpot! proc at the moment.
- The Bestial Wrath cooldown reduction does not function.
- Your Pet turns full green when the 4 piece procs which a lot of people might not enjoy.
Thank you for reading!
1 Like
I have played the PTR. Given the stated intent for the eagle, coupled with PTRs being notoriously buggy in many things (it is a test realm, after all) - I am not entirely convinced the entire effect is correctly displaying in the game. Its possible, but until it hits release or a blue post says “yea, this is the extent of the animations” or similar I am not convinced this is the correct iteration.
Just spent some time running around in the cinderbee area on the PTR to see how bad it would suck to try to do challenging content without a pet.
It’s bad.
I then hopped on live to go screw around there and kill elites for a comparison, and all I could think was “Oh my god! So much easier. Why am I being punished with this upcoming change?”.
Live felt fine and what I’m used to, while the PTR felt horrible and punishing.
Now I realize there are different types of players, and maybe these changes appeal to some of those players, but they certainly don’t appeal to all, and I think the feedback clearly demonstrates that.
I don’t understand why there wasn’t a poll or discussion about this before it changed.
Some hunter players are probably all about raiding and how their rotations feels in a raid environment, but that’s not all hunters. I have no data, but I would guess that’s not even the majority of hunters (or players).
For me? I am older now. I don’t have free time like I did 19 years ago. My raiding days are behind me. I only do PvP casually. My primary game play is questing, doing dailies doing dungeons, leveling alts, collecting transmogs. Stuff like that.
So if you break that down, the only aspect where my MM hunter might not want to run a pet is in dungeons or PvP, at least until I need their abilities. So the way the game plays on live is perfect for me. I don’t care about losing Lone Wolf or managing a pet, because the trade off is how many game play options I get. And since I’m doing dailies and questing most of the time, the loss of a pet is a BIG DEAL.
Again, that’s just me, and other people get enjoyment from their hunter in different ways, and maybe they never quest, and they never want to see a pet and that’s fine, but why wasn’t there a compromise??
Forcing MM players to lose a pet… AFTER TWENTY YEARS OF USING A PET… ON A PET CLASS… I’m sorry, but that just seems really absurd to me that this wasn’t discussed to see what people thought.
This should be an option talent or something.
I said this before and I’ll say it again - Bliz is on record as saying they want to move away from class specs feeling like they are their own thing, and for all specs to feel like they are that class. So regardless of which hunter spec you’re using, you should feel like a hunter. Removing pet from MM seems VERY counter to that stated design goal.
My final summary, because I’m done giving feedback when I don’t anticipate any changes:
My MM hunter on live is enjoyable and has more game play options than I do on the PTR, while the PTR version feels more tedious to play in challenging open world content and offers less game play options for me. Basically the opposite of what I expect from a game to do with an update.
18 Likes
It’s crazy that after 20 years there’s still only one ranged physical dps class.
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The “middle ground” would be making the pet entirely optional. Let those who don’t want a pet play without a pet. Let those who want their pet be able to summon their pet. They can make it work, they’ve just chosen not for their new “design vision” of the spec.
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And out of that one class, only two specs still use their ranged weapons.
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Rotation/flow feedback, dark ranger:
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Windrunner quiver + headshot becomes frustrating to use, because you have to expend your precise shots in order to keep up streamline and cast the things that give you deathblow procs, but you also want to spend your two stack precise buffs on deathblow. The only way to optimize these talents without cheating (scripts or conditional macros) is to invoke downtime between everything that generates a precise charge and the next spell, such that you never accidentally waste your precise charge on the wrong thing in the event of a deathblow proc occurring.
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Related, withering fire doesn’t really do anything (ok, it makes black arrow cleave). It doesn’t matter that it grants you the ability to cast BA at the target regardless of hp%, because you’re going to expend your first DB proc and put the ability on cooldown until you get another proc anyway.
2.5 The only way to accomplish the “chain proccing a bunch of black arrows” situation from the developer note is to take deadeye instead of headshot, which feels worse. Even then, you’re expending your TS guaranteed db proc (which is lesser than the headshot one because you’re now bereft of the precise buff), then expending your completely unbuffed black arrow (which is a damage loss compared to opening aimed or rapidfire), and then hoping that you get a lottery string of ebon bowstring procs. No bueno. I get what the goal is, but this ain’t doing it. -
Tensile bowstring is currently not doing anything, but also, 50% increased streamline effectiveness with imp. streamline would be 90% cast time reduction. That also doesn’t make sense. .25 cast time aimed shots are so far below the GCD cap that it’s kinda nonsensical to do on purpose.
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It feels like you should have more (or at least one) way to guarantee yourself eagle mark debuffs outside of the one you get from pressing trueshot. I think that hunter’s mark would be a perfect thematic fit for this. You could make the eagle interact with hunter’s mark, grant yourself the debuff on the reasonable cooldown, and give the hunter another way to make the eagle do something. This could also fill in gaps left behind in pvp in terms of combat/node defense if you let the hunter use it while CC’ed and make the eagle follow the thing around for a moment. Maybe there’s an option to precast just hunter’s mark on something before a pull, and a way to do this function. Not sure how to make that work, but at a high level, it seems like there should be some interaction here.
Concerns:
From a pvp perspective, it’s already obvious that this iteration of marks is going to be way burstier than even live marks. You can oneshot people with it multiple ways, not even using the known bugs. I strongly, strongly suggest that something else be put in doubletap’s place. It’s going to be impossible to keep aimed shot as this cool and impactful button that does a lot of damage with this talent in the mix. You’re going to end up needing to nerf aimed shot by so much at a base level that it only feels threatening in your ts/dt go, which is going to kill the spec. Conversely, you’re going to keep aimed shot damage high and then have to contend with low armor targets just getting oneshot sometimes. Not a good design either way. We’ve been here before. Don’t do it.
I know that this feedback seems only negative, but I actually like where the spec’s going. I really like how there is now more depth to the spec. There’s actually a rotation that you have to think about. Live marks has been so limited since BFA because it’s just so shallow and straightforward. This is a lot better. It’s going to be harder to fotm swap to it. It’s going to take more effort to learn and master before you’re just steamrolling through low mmr solo shuffles like strong marks iterations recently. These are good things.
4 Likes
I am a fan of the changes after testing them out on the ptr. I’m not going to miss having a pet out, I barely ever used mine in the open world or delves. It is entirely possible to do the same content without a pet. Overall, I think this is an improvement on the gameplay we currently have too which prioritizes spamming aimed shot and rapid fire (and black arrow for DR) as much as possible. Looking forward to seeing how we will be able to customize our eagle with glyphs (give me a seagull glyph, please).
The good:
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Streamline - with this being granted by multiple sources, it makes it so we have to weave in other abilities before and after aimed shots. With one stack of this my Aimed Shot cast is around the same as it is on live. With two stacks, it’s even faster. I did notice that queuing up Rapid Fire right after Aimed Shot wouldn’t give me the buff at all.
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Precision Detonation - With the changes to the travel time of explosive shot, we can use it immediately after casting aimed shot and benefit from this talent. It feels pretty good and is satisfying to see, but I’m not sure if it is intended
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Magnetic Gunpowder and Bullet Hell - Both of these talents adding cd reduction is amazing, especially with volley now doing decent damage, applying Explosive Shots with Salvo talented and the previously mentioned Precision Detonation. It makes for a very satisfying AoE experience.
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Harrier’s Cry - I’m glad a bloodlust ability finally got a spell effect. It’s cool to see our eagle descend from it.
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Lunar Storm - Amazing changes with it all around. Not needing a tracker for its cd is wonderful. I am also glad we lost the owl from it. The screech every 15 seconds was awful. It currently looks like we throw the projectile when it starts up. I believe it would look better if we used the animation from volley where we aim our weapon upward and fire if that is possible
The Not so good:
- Trueshot - I understand it needs to be different from our current version to fit the new flow of the rotation, but it feels a bit lackluster with giving us crit and crit damage and reducing the cd of aimed shot and rapid fire. Maybe adding in Precise Shots to interact with those two abilities during Trueshot might help make it a bit more exciting?
- Calling The Shots/Unerring Vision - Calling The Shots feels weak since it is tied to a proc. I don’t think 2 seconds is enough for it to compete against UV. UV is just better Trueshot, it works, but is a bit boring.
- Double Tap - This talent feels like a trap. Firing a double aimed shot or rapid fire is great, but the damage this talent provides doesn’t feel like it’d ever be worth the point. If Calling The Shots provided more of a cd reduction, then maybe it’d be worth it?
- Ohn’ahran Winds - Having a 25% chance to do AoE version of Spotter’s Mark when it has a 30% chance to proc is bad. This needs to be changed, I doubt it would ever get used otherwise
Thanks for taking the time to read all this. I hope some good can come of it.
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I’m gonna laugh myself silly if the entire rework that pets were deleted for turns out to be worse than what it replaced.
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What ilvl are you? You picked the most difficult area possible where most players group to do it/farm it. Of course you’re gonna have a bad time.
Yup, change can be hard. The way you speak about retail makes me think you are more of a classic player.
This is where you confuse me. You’re upset you can’t go into the cinderbee area and crush everything in sight, but then the majority of your time spent playing is at the most casual level possible and playing other characters. And this isn’t a criticism! It just doesn’t add up to me.
I gotta know your ilvl and what track gear you’re using.
This discussion is happening now in the very thread you’re posting in?
They’ve said the exact opposite, especially with this expansion going deeper into class fantasy with hero talents. They’ve been trying to make every spec feel unique, the MM changes being proof of that. Every spec of hunter does feel distinct. A melee/ranged hybrid with a strong bond to one pet. A mobile ranged class commanding their pets in battle. And a long ranged marksman putting their proficiency with a ranged weapon on display.
I would implore you to try Survival. It’s a melee/ranged hybrid spec (probably about 70% of your attacks can be done at range) and it is the exact pet fantasy you want. You and your pet attacking together!
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Thanks for mentioning this. Let’s be honest. Specs in this game are not designed around casual open world pve content. You don’t have to do delves solo. You don’t have to do delves at all. Delves also give you the pseudo torghast buffs, and there’s nothing saying new marks can’t have more of those to make up for loss of pet tanking. Somehow arcane mage also gets to do delves by itself. Approximately 95% of the spamming here, discord, and other places is so frustrating because it’s literally about the least important content in the game.
Trueshot will feel a lot better when tensile bowstring gets fixed and actually does something. You’re never actually getting the benefit of 50% more effective streamline, so it kinda feels like trueshot just makes you cast rf more and crit slightly more. TB probably shouldn’t give 50% additional benefit because that’s 90% reduced ais cast time with imp streamline, but it clearly needs to do something.
Agree. You don’t get enough eagle mark procs to make it worth it. I personally think that hunter’s mark should grant you an eagle proc. Iterating the eagle proc forward will probably even this out.
Kill it with fire before it ruins pvp.
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I felt a little frustration too with this. It’s like this extra beat where you have to see if Black Arrow is castable before pressing Arcane Shot. A macro could solve this.
Yup, probably too many conditional things going on.
You may be misreading, I haven’t checked myself though. Streamline is 20% per stack. The 50% increase would make it 30% per stack during Trueshot.
Great idea!
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Not a legal macro. It’s kinda like last expansion’s elemental shaman problems. You need a conditional macro or a script, which is against the rules to use.
Imp streamline (bottom left talent) makes it 30% per stack.
Thanks 
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The survival changes are actually legitimately awful, don’t do anything please rather than that.
Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put butchery and flank on a choice node, insane.
Also the merciless blow nerf is nuts too.
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Or they can just let us keep our pets.
Because pets are the unifying fantasy of the Hunter class. BM has pets. MM has pets. SV has pets. That’s the only thing that really ties the whole class together.
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feels good like visuals a lot hawk look awesome that snaps on my spells.
like it a lot.
i wrote later for sure more :") good job so far
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Or they can not, just like they decided to not give back fully ranged survival and we all survived.
No they’re not.
Mail armor. Freezing trap. Aspect of the turtle. Camo. Literally everything else that the whole class has. Marks having the same pets as bm and sv is actually less thematically congruent because there is no interaction between you and fluffy. You spec bm or sv and do many things with fluffy. You change to marks and fluffy is literally just there to hold aggro for you in meaningless open world pve content.
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