Feedback: Hunters

[Spacemarines-stormrage]

This is heartbreaking to hear and see other people who are testing on the PTR admit MM needs love. Feels bad… feels really bad.

[Kirenaika-daggerspine]

Hello,

MM PTR testing feedback:

• The “Windrunner quiver” and “Moving target” talents are mandatory to make the spec work as intended. Windrunner quiver gives 2 stacks of precise shots, and Moving target makes each stack of precise shots give streamline. This is a “noob trap” situation where many new/returning players will not know to take these, and will not have a good experience, mildly put.

Please make aimed shot give 2 stacks of precise shots baseline, and precise shots to give streamline baseline. The Windrunner quiver and Moving target talents could just provide their respective damage increases.

• Withering fire (Dark ranger capstone) does nothing after the rework. It gives deathblow (which I’m swimming in anyway) and some weak cleave that doesn’t apply in single target anyway.

• The Trueshot talent does not do enough for a 2 minute CD, and you need 5 talent points just to make it work in the first place. Yes, it speeds up the rotation a bit, but does not feel exciting or impactful at all.

• The “Unbreakable bond” talent should explain that it allows you to use Call pet but the pets no longer have a specialization (ferocity/tenacity/cunning). This is very important information that is not conveyed and will cause tremendous amounts of confusion to new/returning players. Also, calling a pet shows the old actives/passives (f.e. Endurance training, Fortitude of the bear) in the spell book but they don’t work. If you reload UI they disappear from the spell book and all is good.

Thank you

[Alamara-goldrinn (Alamara)]

@Kirenaika-daggerspine

The “Windrunner quiver” and “Moving target” talents are mandatory to make the spec work as intended. Windrunner quiver gives 2 stacks of precise shots, and Moving target makes each stack of precise shots give streamline. This is a “noob trap” situation where many new/returning players will not know to take these, and will not have a good experience, mildly put.

This is true. Moving Target is less of a problem since it’s up in the tree and it’s very hard for players to miss it out. But Windrunner Quiver is weird. It’s too good to not be taken, but players can miss it out since its benefits aren’t always clear (nothing in its description says you spend both stacks of Precise Shots with a single Arcane or Multishot, and it’s not clear that spending both stacks at once will grant two Streamline stacks).

Windrunner Quiver was still optional when the chance to get two stacks of Precise Shots was 50%. With a 100% chance, there’s no reason for anyone to skip on it. When a capstone talent is required for all builds, it should become baseline.

[Noobtanker-area-52]

Thats one cool asnwer !

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Stormbeasts-benediction

This is 100% true. The same like 5 people that spam brigaded this thread for weeks about pets IMMEDIATELY stopped posting feedback once pets were added back in (Despite claiming they care about the spec and play MM).

Like very clearly they don’t because the moment pets were added back, MM No longer mattered to them. The spec’s design has literally been handicapped and hijacked by people that don’t play it at endgame.

The feedback has been posted, by many people. Pet/no pet is not relevant to that feedback. That feedback isn’t getting as much engagement because nobody is really arguing against it - there’s only so many times most people will repost the same thing without getting any kind of response or discussion, and replying “This ^” to the same feedback posted by somebody else doesn’t add much to the discussion.

Here’s my take:

Trueshot is not very good.

• Trueshot requires a significant talent investment to really come online.
• Trueshot is comparatively weak when looking at 2 min CDs for other DPS specs.
• There have been dozens if not hundreds of posts that cover Trueshot in far greater detail, please read them, we are all basically saying the same thing.
• I like the increased chance to apply Spotter’s Mark, but the rest of the cooldown is stacking a bunch of “this is sort of Haste but not really” effects that all require independent adjustment, making it extremely difficult to balance such that we feel strong when it’s active, but not wimpy the rest of the time.

Extended auto shot time sucks. It feels slow and unresponsive. It causes a whole bunch of problems and it shouldn't be a thing.

• Tacking this on to Precise Shots (which is mandatory) feels awful.
• Also generally odd to add an unrelated nerf to an existing talent for no discernible reason. If it’s a balance thing, tune Precise Shots directly.
• Even with In The Rhythm and Jackpot!, you are still at a net +0.5s from live.
• In order to reach that +0.5s, you need to spec a suboptimal talent, and you need to proc the 2pc set bonus, which is pure RNG outside of Trueshot.
• This has knock on balancing effects on weapon enchants, temporary weapon enchants, trinkets, embellishments, etc.
• Lock and Load and Bleak Arrows are absolutely gutted by this change.
• The entire 2pc and 4pc being built around Auto Shot procs also sucks.
• Changing the period of autoattack damage can be interesting, if it has gameplay implications, and autoattack-based procs are proportionally adjusted. Neither is the case here.

Double Tap remains as problematic as it has been every time it's been in the game.

• Aimed Shot has procs for +40% (Improved Spotter’s Mark), +15% (Quickdraw), +20% (Moving Target), and +20/30/40% (Bulletstorm, depending on number of targets and whether Incendiary Ammo is talented).
• You can stack all of these at once, though the 15% from Quickdraw is pure RNG, and you wouldn’t hold onto Spotter’s Mark fishing for Lock and Load.
• This shakes out to a Double Tap, double crit, fully buffed Aimed Shot doing roughly 4200% AP damage (roughly 4800% AP once you factor PvP mod (+55% damage) and PvP crits (x1.5 instead of x2). This is up from 527% AP (for a single standard Aimed Shot with passive talents, but no buffs or procs).
• It’s actually even more ridiculous than this, because I forgot to factor in crit damage bonus talents.
• Even ignoring the best case RNG dream, and focusing solely on “I can do this every time Double Tap is available”, you have over 80% bonus damage, ~20% of which applies to the second hit from Double Tap as well.
• I don’t believe there is a way to have Double Tap exist and be reasonably balanced to where it’s truly an optional talent. I’d recommend removing Double Tap and replacing it with something else. Or remove it and don’t replace it because Unerring Vision is there.

Spotter's Mark, combined with the removal of Serpentstalker's Trickery and Careful Aim, encourages tunneling on a single target.

• There is no incentive to switch to a new target. I’m used to (and prefer) tabbing to new adds (and Misdirecting them to the tank) when they initially spawn.
• This is very niche but I really enjoyed the skill expression of trying to maintain Serpent Sting on as many targets as possible.
• I’m not sure whether anyone cares about this, and we clearly have bigger fish to fry.

The pet conversation became as big as it did because it generated outrage. People who like pets were outraged they were going away. People who hate pets were outraged that some people like pets. Everybody was back and forth sniping at each other the entire time, and the conversation was awful.

The conversation around rotational feedback is not at all like that. Nobody is telling me I’m wrong and MM simply can’t work without +2s to Auto Shot. Nobody is telling me that my preferred gameplay doesn’t matter because I want Trueshot to feel impactful when I press it, but also not hit like a wet noodle the rest of the time. Nobody is telling me I’m terrible at the game because I think tiny gains from properly tab targeting new enemies makes for interesting skill expression at the high end. Nobody is telling me that my class fantasy doesn’t matter because I think Double Tap is a tuning nightmare that should stay dead.

[Kirenaika-daggerspine]

Why is the perception of the MM rework so negative?

Today I watched a couple of Youtube videos by different content creators regarding patch 11.1 meta predictions:

• All PVE videos (Petko, Kalamazi, etc.) ranked MM dead last for Mythic+, as sole spec in the lowest tier, and they all said MM was the worst DPS for mythic+ by far, and that the rework achieved nothing in a sense that it made the spec more demanding but did not change the damage profile (sustain mediocre, 2-target cleave still bad etc.).
• The PVP ones (Skill capped, Supatease) predict that MM will feel nerfed in arena compared to live, f.e. it will be harder to maintain the mortal strike effect with aimed shot than with pet, it will be harder to pull off aimed shot casts while micro-cced and trained by 2 melee, etc.

I was disheartened and even a bit shocked to hear all this. Is it really true that MM is the worst DPS? I tested as much as I could, but I never did any mythic+ or real PVP as the queues on the PTR are very long - I mostly did duels and disorganized PVP such as skirmish and tested the feel of the spec, tested for bugs, checked that everything worked as described, this kind of stuff.

I personally liked the changes overall and found the spec more fun (except in trueshot) than on live. It did not feel weak to me.

Did you guys test end-game content? What was your experience?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Kirenaika-daggerspine

Is it really true that MM is the worst DPS?

Tuning is largely irrelevant at this stage, Blizzard will issue balance hotfixes on patch day, then again after week 1 of 11.1 live, then again for probably a few weeks at the beginning of the season.

@Kirenaika-daggerspine

I tested as much as I could, but I never did any mythic+ or real PVP as the queues on the PTR are very long - I mostly did duels and disorganized PVP such as skirmish and tested the feel of the spec, tested for bugs, checked that everything worked as described, this kind of stuff.

That’s what PTR is for. Sims and live testing give far more accurate data for tuning. PTR testing is aimed at discovering bugs before they go live, and potentially iteration on a proposed design before it goes live and balance becomes more of a concern.

[Alamara-goldrinn (Alamara)]

Until we see the final tuning adjustments, it’s hard to guess where the spec will really be. Usually, the hotfixes on patch day are quite extensive, and there may or may not be even more changes on the following week, when season starts.

We shouldn’t expect design changes anymore, so things like talent tree and Trueshot will more likely than not remain as they are now, but it’s easy for Blizzard to give some buffs (and nerfs) in several skills and talents as they see fit. Cooldown timers, skill damage, focus costs, and proc chances are things that Blizzard can still adjust in order to make the spec competitive.

[Silveraug-area-52]

Double Tap should not exist in PvP, Blizzard changed PvP environment years ago to allow for abilities to exist/not exist in PvP, they also allow for completely different scaling in PvP. That is how they should deal with Double Tap and PvP.

Great summary of issues with MM

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

@Adreaver-undermine

Tuning is largely irrelevant at this stage, Blizzard will issue balance hotfixes on patch day, then again after week 1 of 11.1 live, then again for probably a few weeks at the beginning of the season

Yes, it’s like a few posters said earlier in this thread. Blizzard often holds off on “fixes” until the patch is live.

It honestly makes me wonder how many people even bother with testing on the PTR. Does Blizzard just not get enough data from the PTR?

[Alamara-goldrinn (Alamara)]

The PTR is mostly for “feeling” the gameplay and finding bugs. Comparing parses during PTR will never give definitive results, but they can generate feedback that Blizzard may or may not work on. It’s very customary for tuning passes to only happen very near PTR’s end cycle, and then continue over a few weeks after patch day.

[Tacothebell-lightbringer]

How balance tuning is done matters (buffing/nerfing everything vs. targeted buffs or nerfs to specific abilities), but I wouldn’t base how powerful a spec is on the PTR. Tuning is not complete and it won’t even be complete when the patch goes live. I would expect balance tuning to continue, probably including a round of significant tuning changes when the new season launches on March 4th, with more changes after that.

I just hope the gameplay doesn’t change (no talent changes) until the next tier comes out so that the playstyle remains the same throughout the entire tier. I don’t want to have to relearn my spec in the middle of the tier. Bugged talents can be fixed, but no design changes. I wish the 11.0.5 survival hunter changes had happened in 11.1 instead since that’s when the new raid tier comes out.

[Tavington-sargeras]

@Kirenaika-daggerspine

The PVP ones (Skill capped, Supatease) predict that MM will feel nerfed in arena compared to live, f.e. it will be harder to maintain the mortal strike effect with aimed shot than with pet, it will be harder to pull off aimed shot casts while micro-cced and trained by 2 melee, etc.

Skillcapped is wrong more often than not. Supatease prediction videos also don’t mean anything. He’s just looking at patch notes.

Marks will actually be pretty broken in solo shuffle and maybe 3s when it realeases because of:

@Adreaver-undermine

• Aimed Shot has procs for +40% (Improved Spotter’s Mark), +15% (Quickdraw), +20% (Moving Target), and +20/30/40% (Bulletstorm, depending on number of targets and whether Incendiary Ammo is talented).
• You can stack all of these at once, though the 15% from Quickdraw is pure RNG, and you wouldn’t hold onto Spotter’s Mark fishing for Lock and Load.
• This shakes out to a Double Tap, double crit, fully buffed Aimed Shot doing roughly 4200% AP damage (roughly 4800% AP once you factor PvP mod (+55% damage) and PvP crits (x1.5 instead of x2). This is up from 527% AP (for a single standard Aimed Shot with passive talents, but no buffs or procs).

And the pvp talent sniper’s advantage, which gives you sniper shot range on the same buttons that proc doubletap. You won’t actually need to understand much else about how the rest of the spec is supposed to flow, because you’ll have this for kill potential from outside of peel range every volley. Whoever stated that aimed shot will be harder to get off against melees also doesn’t know what they’re talking about, because live marks hunter still has to cast aimed shot without streamline sometimes, which is a longer aimed shot cast than you’ll ever have to cast in 11.1.

Also, aimed shot has a 1.7825 pvp coefficient on live, which means that they’ve already adjusted it :

Live Aimed

Name : Aimed Shot (id=19434) [Spell Family (9)]
Talent Entry : Marksmanship [tree=spec, row=1, col=1, max_rank=1, req_points=0]
Class : Hunter
School : Physical
Spell Type : Ranged
Resource : 35 Focus (2) (id=795)
Spell Level : 10
Range : 40 yards
Cast Time : 2.5 seconds
GCD : 1.5 seconds
Velocity : 100 yards/sec
Requires weapon : Bow, Gun, Crossbow
Charges : 2 (12 seconds cooldown)
Category : 1715 (Type 0x1): Marksmanship Hunter (137016 effect#6), Trueshot (288613 effect#3), Tactical Reload (400472 effect#2)
Labels : 16: Class Spells
: 23: Hunter Spells
: 292
Azerite Power Id : 97
Affecting Spells : Freezing Trap (3355 effect#2), Bestial Wrath (19574 effects: #1, #4), Refocus (24531 effect#1), Mortal Shots (36413 effect#1), Hunter (137014 effect#3), Beast Mastery Hunter (137015 effects: #1, #2), Marksmanship Hunter (137016 effects: #1, #2), Survival Hunter (137017 effects: #1, #2), Lone Wolf (155228 effects: #1, #2), Mastery: Sniper Training (193468 effects: #1, #2, #4), Lock and Load (194594 effects: #1, #2, #3), Bullseye (204090 effect#1), Sentinel’s Sight (208913 effect#1), Gyroscopic Stabilization (235712 effects: #1, #2), Unseen Predator’s Cloak (248212 effect#1), Trick Shots (257622 effect#2), Thrill of the Hunt (257946 effect#1), Lethal Shots (260395 effect#2), Mastery: Spirit Bond (263135 effects: #1, #2), Arrowstorm (263814 effect#1), Lethal Shots (269502 effect#1), Trueshot (288613 effects: #4, #7), Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil (336892 effect#1), Streamline (342076 effect#1), Coordinated Assault (360952 effects: #2, #5), Bestial Pact (360955 effects: #3, #4), Night Hunter (378766 effect#1), Focused Aim (378767 effect#1), Spearhead (378957 effects: #2, #3), Fury Strikes (425830 effects: #1, #2), Sentinel Precision (450375 effects: #1, #2), Moving Target (457116 effect#1), Specialized Arsenal (459542 effects: #1, #2), Outland Venom (459941 effect#1)
Family Flags : 1, 17, 106, 121
Attributes : Uses Ranged Slot (1), Is Ability (4), Not Shapeshifted (16), Discount Power On Miss (59), Do Not Reset Combat Timers (81), Initiate Combat Post-Cast (Enables Auto-Attack) (84), Bouncy Chain Missiles (146), Force Display Castbar (155), Do Not Auto Select Target with Initiates Combat (220), Allow Class Ability Procs (416)
Effects :
#1 (id=10651) : School Damage (2): physical
Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 (delta=0.05) | AP Coefficient: 3.63 | PvP Coefficient: 1.7825 | Target: Enemy (6)
#2 (id=101526) : Dummy (3)
Base Value: 50 | Scaled Value: 50
Description : A powerful aimed shot that deals $s1 Physical damage$?s260240[ and causes your next 1-$260242u ]$?s342049&s260240[Chimaera Shots]?s260240[Arcane Shots]$?s260240[ or Multi-Shots to deal $260242s1% more damage].$?s260228[

PTR Aimed

Name : Aimed Shot (id=19434) [Spell Family (9)]
Talent Entry : Marksmanship [tree=spec, row=1, col=1, max_rank=1, req_points=0]
Class : Hunter
School : Physical
Spell Type : Ranged
Resource : 35 Focus (2) (id=795)
Spell Level : 10
Range : 40 yards
Cast Time : 3 seconds
GCD : 1.5 seconds
Velocity : 100 yards/sec
Requires weapon : Bow, Gun, Crossbow
Charges : 2 (12 seconds cooldown)
Category : 1715 (Type 0x1): Marksmanship Hunter (137016 effect#6), Trueshot (288613 effect#3), Ammo Conservation (459794 effect#5)
Labels : 16: Class Spells
: 23: Hunter Spells
: 292
Azerite Power Id : 97
Affecting Spells : Freezing Trap (3355 effect#2), Bestial Wrath (19574 effects: #1, #4), Refocus (24531 effect#1), Mortal Shots (36413 effect#1), Hunter (137014 effect#3), Beast Mastery Hunter (137015 effects: #1, #2), Marksmanship Hunter (137016 effects: #1, #2), Survival Hunter (137017 effects: #1, #2), Lone Wolf (155228 effects: #1, #2), Aspect of the Cheetah (186257 effect#3), Aspect of the Cheetah (186258 effect#3), Mastery: Sniper Training (193468 effects: #1, #2, #4), Lock and Load (194594 effects: #1, #2), Bullseye (204090 effect#1), Sentinel’s Sight (208913 effect#1), Gyroscopic Stabilization (235712 effects: #1, #2), Unseen Predator’s Cloak (248212 effect#1), Trick Shots (257622 effect#2), Thrill of the Hunt (257946 effect#1), Lethal Shots (260395 effect#2), Mastery: Spirit Bond (263135 effects: #1, #2), Arrowstorm (263814 effect#1), Lethal Shots (269502 effect#1), Trueshot (288613 effect#5), Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil (336892 effect#1), Streamline (342076 effects: #1, #2), Coordinated Assault (360952 effects: #2, #5), Bestial Pact (360955 effects: #3, #4), Spearhead (378957 effects: #2, #3), Bulletstorm (389020 effects: #1, #2), Fury Strikes (425830 effects: #1, #2), Sentinel Precision (450375 effects: #1, #2), Hunter Marksmanship 11.0 Class Set 4pc (453650 effect#1), Specialized Arsenal (459542 effects: #1, #2), Outland Venom (459941 effect#1), Spotter’s Mark (466872 effects: #1, #2), Wyvern’s Cry (471881 effects: #1, #2), Eagle’s Accuracy (473369 effect#1), Moving Target (474293 effect#1), Spotter’s Mark (1215057 effects: #1, #2)
Family Flags : 1, 17, 106, 121
Attributes : Uses Ranged Slot (1), Is Ability (4), Not Shapeshifted (16), Discount Power On Miss (59), Do Not Reset Combat Timers (81), Initiate Combat Post-Cast (Enables Auto-Attack) (84), Bouncy Chain Missiles (146), Force Display Castbar (155), Do Not Auto Select Target with Initiates Combat (220), Allow Class Ability Procs (416)
Effects :
#1 (id=10651) : School Damage (2): physical
Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 (delta=0.05) | AP Coefficient: 4.574 | PvP Coefficient: 1.55 | Target: Enemy (6)
#2 (id=101526) : Dummy (3)
Base Value: 50 | Scaled Value: 50
Description : A powerful aimed shot that deals $s1 Physical damage.

Rapid fire has a 1.6675 pvp coefficient:

RF (both)

Name : Rapid Fire (id=257045) [Spell Family (9)]
Class : Hunter
School : Physical
Spell Type : Ranged
Spell Level : 3
Range : 40 yards
Velocity : 40 yards/sec
Requires weapon : Bow, Gun, Crossbow
Labels : 16: Class Spells
: 23: Hunter Spells
: 292
Affecting Spells : Freezing Trap (3355 effect#2), Bestial Wrath (19574 effects: #1, #4), Mortal Shots (36413 effect#1), Beast Mastery Hunter (137015 effects: #1, #2), Marksmanship Hunter (137016 effects: #1, #2), Survival Hunter (137017 effects: #1, #2), Lone Wolf (155228 effects: #1, #2), Mastery: Sniper Training (193468 effects: #1, #2), Bullseye (204090 effect#1), Unseen Predator’s Cloak (248212 effect#1), Trick Shots (257622 effect#2), Thrill of the Hunt (257946 effect#1), Streamline (260367 effects: #1, #2), Lethal Shots (260395 effect#1), Mastery: Spirit Bond (263135 effects: #1, #2), Focused Fire (278531 effect#2), Surging Shots (336867 effects: #1, #2), Brutal Projectiles (339929 effect#1), Coordinated Assault (360952 effects: #2, #5), Bestial Pact (360955 effects: #3, #4), Night Hunter (378766 effect#1), Focused Aim (378767 effect#1), Spearhead (378957 effects: #2, #3), Surging Shots (391559 effects: #1, #2), Fury Strikes (425830 effects: #1, #2), Hunter Marksmanship 10.2 Class Set 2pc (431168 effect#1), Sentinel Precision (450375 effects: #1, #2), Cornered Prey (452101 effect#1), Outland Venom (459941 effect#1)
Family Flags : 3, 106, 121
Attributes : Uses Ranged Slot (1), Ignore Line of Sight (66), Do Not Reset Combat Timers (81), No Durability Loss (101), Not a Proc (105), Bouncy Chain Missiles (146), Allow Cast While Channeling (308), Allow Class Ability Procs (416)
Effects :
#1 (id=479998) : School Damage (2): physical
Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 (delta=0.05) | AP Coefficient: 0.605 | PvP Coefficient: 1.6675 | Target: Enemy (6)
Description : $@spelldesc257044

Run aspect of the hydra and you get the additional benefit of cleaving both melees with trick shots AND hydra AND compounded multipliers via doubletap in your volley.

[Lyndreia-moon-guard]

The only confusion in MM’s identity is whether or not it’s supposed to be a slow, methodical sniper or a heavy machine gunner that lays down suppressing fire. Having a pet or not is adjacent to that. It can be there when needed for solo play, and then put away in group play. It’s integral to the hunter class but not vital to the MM spec, which is why Blizzard gave it back to us while keeping the utility changes and the inclusion of the spotter eagle thing.

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

The insistence on “slow and methodical sniper” playstyle never made full sense to me.

Like, have you guys never watched the Top Guns show? A good half of these activities are quick-paced! Clay pigeon shooting, anyone?

Marksmanship (the term itself, not the spec) means great preciseness and accuracy. There’s nothing in its definition that says slow.

So it never made sense to me.

[Maxzen-tichondrius]

Marksmanship should play like Plunderstorm where you have to accurately aim skillshots to deal max DPS.

[Alamara-goldrinn (Alamara)]

That would be horrible, especially in PvP. Players with slower connections have huge disadvantages because of the delays between getting the target’s position, starting the cast, tracking the target and finishing the casting.

[Feyori-dreamscythe]

To add on to your analysis, if MM has “identity issues” it would be more due to bows/crossbows/guns and their respective abilities being mashed together more than anything else. Maybe not so much crossbows and bows, but you get the point.

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Lyndreia-moon-guard

Having a pet or not is adjacent to that.

Having a pet is completely inconsequential to MM which is my entire point. MM having a pet does as much for the unique MM fantasy as it does for the outlaw or ret fantasy i…e nothing

[Lyndreia-moon-guard]

While you’re technically correct, the pet is important to hunter fantasy. That’s why people want to keep it.

We’ve already lost so much identity by having our hybrid melee/ranged capabilities taken away, plus dual-wielding.