Feedback: Hunters

Kabetogama-emerald-dream · June 26, 2024, 3:35pm

Feedback for Marksmanship:

Latest build feedback:

I like Death Chakram being removed. It did not feel like an impactful button to press, and didn’t have synergy with any of the spec talent trees.
I appreciate the tuning done to MM. I think the Multi-shot focus increase actually makes the AoE rotation more interesting. Prior to this focus was basically irrelevant to the rotation, and steady shot was practically unused. Now, steady shot becomes a useful button press, and the improved steady shot talent doesn’t feel like a wasted choice in AoE.
From what I can tell Marksmanship hunters can now cast Intimidation without losing Lone Wolf with a bit of class talent tree investment, I think that’s great.

Problems with the talent tree:

Single Target:

The single target rotation is hardly ever in need of focus generation between optimal rapid fire usage, crack shot/precise shots making arcane shots only cost 10 focus, and hero talents restoring focus or making our shots free. This makes the improved steady shot talent feel like a wasted pick in a single target situation.
In what feels like a standard single target build, where no AoE related talents are chosen, and improved steady shot is omitted (because it is really a wasted pick), Upon arriving at the end of the second talent gate on row 7, I have 19 points selected. My sensible options here are: Volley, Chimaera shot, Steady focus and Hydra’s Bite. 3/4 of these talents really only shine in 2+ enemy encounters, and the other is steady focus, a pretty unfun talent to play with, that due to the focus generation issues I mentioned above, is really hard to play with optimally as well. I would like to see steady focus replace completely, or potentially reworked to trigger off of Arcane Shot instead, which might play nicely with precise shots and encourage us to burn more focus to get the haste benefits to recuperate that spent focus. It will also make keeping Steady Focus up during Trueshot more convenient and intuitive.
Lets say we take one of those 4 mentioned talents in the single target build, and can go into the final talent gate to get our capstones. At this point we can pickup the points leading to Readiness, all 4 Trueshot related points, and 2 points in focused aim. To me this feels pretty good, we get 2 useful capstones and both points of focused aim. The problems with the single target build I think are really that there aren’t enough useful options in the first two gates.

AoE:

Crack Shot really doesn’t feel like a good pick in an AoE build where you’re mostly spending precise shots on Multi-shot instead of Arcane Shot. I think these two talents, Improved Steady Shot and Crack Shot could use some adjusting in pathing or usefulness, but I’m not really sure what a good solution is right now.
There are a ton of AoE related talents in the second half of the tree. Picking up the necessary components of an M+ or cleave build isn’t very intuitive. I think a major problem is the pathing within the tree, and I want to provide some feedback and solutions on places where I think things can be improved.
On the left side of the tree we have the Barrage and Rapid fire nodes, but we also have Careful Aim mixed in. Careful Aim’s inclusion here is confusing, and it acting as a gate to Barrage is even more confusing. I think swapping the location of Fan the Hammer and Careful Aim would make the most sense here.
In the middle of the tree we have 4 AoE related nodes that lead back into the lower part of the tree. Because these nodes do not directly lead into more AoE talents, they make further investment in AoE much more expensive. Creating a build that incorporates these 4 nodes (Multi-shot, Trick Shots, Bulletstorm, and a Heavy/Light Ammo selection) leaves us with a choice of the following potentially useful buttons in AoE: Rapid Fire Barrage, Volley/Kill Zone, Small Game Hunter/Salvo, Razor Fragments, and Wailing Arrow, and our Trueshot related nodes. This is a lot to choose from, and we can really only have about half of it. So, here’s my cook on how to fix it:
- Take Small Game Hunter and Salvo and Place them in the two spots directly under Trick Shots. Make them lead into Lone Wolf.
- Move Volley under Focused Aim, where Small Game Hunter is in the current tree.
- Move Kill Zone under Volley. Ideally, I would really like to see this changed to our current Dragonflight Season 3/4 set bonus, or something of that nature.
- Move Chimaera Shot to Volley’s location in the current tree
- Add a new capstone under Chimaera Shot that enables it to grant us Trick Shots in some way to allow us to cleave onto two targets with some amount of investment. This will make Chimaera shot always feel like a good pick when fighting 2 targets.
- There may also be an option where Barrage and Rapid Fire Barrage are moved into the capstone positions, instead of the Chimaera Shot changes if that’s out of the question.
- I think these changes will allow us more flexibility in how we approach the third gate in the tree by allowing us to fully invest in what feels like our basic AoE toolkit earlier in the tree. This grants us more points to spend on our many AoE related capstones.

Percival-firetree · June 26, 2024, 3:36pm

Kill Command is now an incredibly bloated ability for Survival.

Generates Focus.
Resets it’s own cooldown.
Reduces bomb cooldown.
Resets Killshot and makes it AoE.
Procs Arcane and Explosive Shots.
Gives Tip of the Spear.
Bleeds the target.
Can strike 3 extra targets.

With Pack Leader
Echo’s it’s damage.
Causes pet special procs.
Procs amped RS/MB.

I might even be missing some effects.

And now it also:
Every 4th use it doesn’t interact with your entire kit or any of the above effects
Yeets you to your death.

I do not mind Kill Command being central to our kit but this flanking strike change has so many problems with it. We did not have a button bloat problem, we had a GCD bloat problem and this does not address that problem in any way. There was a ton of feedback given that was originally listened to to turn flanking strike into a spender (and tip generator) and it was granted, and it felt GREAT. Flanking Strike as a spender fit nicely into the rotation, it had use in PvP, ST, and AoE, worked well with the goal of playing around tip of the spear and now it’s just… bad. Please reconsider and revert this back to being a focus spender that consumes AND generates the tip stack. I don’t like calling design decisions bad but turning your 50yd focus generator into a 25yd leap is just not a good design decision, ignoring the fact that flanking strike does not interact with our entire kit and you have to use it prior to getting kill command back.

Robu-shadow-council · June 26, 2024, 3:38pm

Yeah, I remember that, I never take it. It’s an optional talent, split between having it move you or not. They have that other new thing in the class tree where you roll and get ported to the mob, but you are actively choosing to take that as an option, too.

Robu-shadow-council · June 26, 2024, 3:39pm

Maila-dawnbringer · June 26, 2024, 3:42pm

really not fond of the simplification of mongoose bite. MB was one of the things that made me really fall in love with survival back in legion.

imo, MB and TotS being available at the same time here in the beta created a good tension. we were already weaving KC’s in because if you sit on full KC charges for too long you focus starve yourself. TotS just added a bit more thought re: when exactly you weave them in. you’d prioritize mongoose bites later in the window to further empower them, which felt good

without the limited mongoose fury windows it’s going to be much more “just use KC before X ability and you’re good”

Percival-firetree · June 26, 2024, 3:50pm

To be fair, this didn’t really simplify mongoose bite. We didn’t play around Mongoose Fury since basically legion/BFA. There was a small time frame in Vault of the Incarnates where it was a small gain in DPS to sit on your bombs until fury fell off but MFury has been largely a thing you ignored in favour of managing Kill Command. If you managed Kill Command properly, it naturally managed Mfury windows.

It just feels really bad because maintenance buffs feel really bad, and the decision stated behind the change is flawed: We did not prioritise Mongoose Bite over other abilities during fury. It was not pushing us in 2 different directions. MFury has always been about managing Kill Command properly, and making Kill Command even more important with the tip change did not change this fact.

Maila-dawnbringer · June 26, 2024, 3:56pm

ye, that is true. maybe it’s more of a “gameplay feel” thing than actual numbers. i liked the feeling of executing MB windows, even if it was hard to really mess up as long as you weren’t doing something fundamentally wrong

the animation cycle probably helps with that a lot too. LOVE getting to 5 stacks and having my character do the big jumps while saying “YAAH!”

Thazen-sargeras · June 26, 2024, 3:58pm

Yeah between the loss of DC, wildfire infusion, and mb animations, it feels like we are losing the visual flair of the spec.

Lorelei-gilneas · June 26, 2024, 4:10pm

I don’t think that it being a capstone is odd–the class tree having fewer mandatory cap talents is good, actually. Ideally they all would be optional in any tree, and it would be possible to make meaningful builds that picked whichever 1-2 people wanted. That’s somewhat possible with the class tree (Unnatural Causes still feels mandatory) but not so much with the BM class tree, for example.

Karendra-area-52 · June 26, 2024, 4:28pm

Can’t agree with this more. The apparent conflict between TotS and Mongoose Fury wasn’t a fault with the spec, it created interesting gameplay decisions around how to resolve that conflict.

Ghonhir-living-flame · June 26, 2024, 4:33pm

(posting on behalf of Thyminde-EU)

Flanking Strike in its current, passive form is a recipe for disaster.

The decision to turn it into a passive in the latest changes make absolutely no sense. The only reason behind this change I could possibly imagine is for it to reduce “button bloat” (aka, the amount of buttons within a rotation, not to be confused with gcd bloat).This seems wildly unnecessary. We already lost Steel Trap and Death Chakram and received Explosive Shot in return, which we already used in all of our AoE builds anyway.

Our ST rotation consisted of:

Mongoose Bite,
Steel trap,
Kill Command,
Wildfire bomb
Flanking Strike,
Kill Shot,
Death Chakrams (7)

and is now:

Mongoose Bite,
Explosive Shot,
Kill Command (Flanking Strike),
Wildfire Bomb,
Kill Shot (5)

Our AoE rotation consisted of:

Mongoose Bite,
Explosive Shot,
Wildfire Bomb,
Butchery,
Fury of the Eagle,
Kill Command,
Flanking Strike,
Kill Shot,
Death Chakram (8)

and is now:

Mongoose Bite,
Explosive Shot,
Wildfire Bomb
Butchery,
Kill Command (Flanking Strike),
Kill Shot (6)
FotE can be added for 7.

Our ST rotations are relatively tame, if button bloat is truly a concern, then why was ST touched through Flanking Strike of all buttons? it would have made much more sense to directly target AoE. Although to be clear, I don’t think merging buttons in this manner is ever the way to do it, you could realistically do something to merge Butchery/FotE to trigger a non-channel variant of FotE under some circumstances.

This would actually target button bloat where it matters (AoE) and fix the GCD bloat that FoTE heavily contributes to. Going into the more fundamental design and gameplay flaws, this change looks even more bizarre.

1 in 4 KCs becomes a FS. 25% of your KC casts is suddenly gone . Since it is now once again a generator it directly replaces those KC casts - when it was a spender you at least had to recover the spent focus through more KCs.
The passive FS occurs dramatically more often than the original 30 second FS CD allowed for originally.
Because it occurs so often and replaces KC casts, it severely weakens any talent node that mechanically relies on KC to even work to begin with. the most obvious examples are the newly reworked sic’ em and Quick Shot as well as Sulfur-Lined Pockets . This extends to KC-reset mechanics as well, which are featured across the talent tree. This even affects hero talent tree nodes such as Vicious Hunt

The elephant in the room is the leap attached to Flanking Strike . While the occurrence isn’t technically random it happening in a given timeframe is random by virtue of our rotation having elements of randomness.

For instance, on any given mythic plus pack you might have to deal with the leap attached to flanking strike as a certain mechanic is happening, a very common way for us to deal with stomps or AoE mechanics is to back off from the target briefly, filling with Kill Commands. Whether you can actually do this is now going to depend on how many Kill Commands you have previously done, and you’ll most certainly need to monitor it closely so you don’t accidentally leap yourself into a dangerous AoE. Similar examples include Smolderon’s fire dance, or trying to back off a target in PvP that clearly has the upper hand on you for the moment, or perhaps is in cooldowns.
It is in direct conflict with Aspect of the Eagle . Aspect of the Eagle grants us the ability to use Mongoose Bite at a 40 yard range. This effectively means all of our abilities (except autos) are ranged for the duration of Aspect of the Eagle, These ranged abilities include Kill Command, and as a generator is a fundamental piece for our rotation to even function. Now, the moment Flanking Strike decides to replace Kill Command, not only does it have a 25yd range instead of the 40yd+ that our other abilities have, it now also leaps you directly into melee range, which completely destroys the point / reason of why you pressed aspect of the eagle to begin with. Choosing to simply not FS halts your rotation since your generator is now locked behind it.
there is a reason monk’s skyreach was a choice node, and is now simply gone from the talent tree. Fury Warrior’s raging blow charge is a similar mechanic that is removed.
Also, the fact that you can /cancelaura the buff immediately makes the attempt to remove FS as a rotational button pointless. since you’ll just replace it with said macro in an attempt to avoid the above from happening

TLDR: This change to Flanking Strike will 100% cause deaths and frustration and is simply not worth the removal of 1 rotational button.

Conabron-nazjatar · June 26, 2024, 5:17pm

Again, thanks for being so responsive to our feedback. I’ll give my views on this week’s changes and summarise the things that I’m still hoping to see.

HUNTER Class Tree Feedback

Scout’s Instinct – Please consider reverting the position of this talent. It feels pretty bad to have to choose Disruptive Rounds, No Hard Feelings, or Scare Beast in M+ content just to gain access to Binding Shot.

I really like that you’ve been clear that Steel Trap should not be part of our DPS rotation and it has been removed, but Blackrock Munitions as a pure throughput talent seems a little lacking in imagination.

Binding Shackles – This talent still doesn’t include Bursting Shot or Entrapment.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for implementing Implosive Trap, but the 1.5 min CD feels a little out of kilter with other such class interrupt effects. The CD is also not affected by Improved Traps.

What’s still missing

Hunter’s Mark damage amplification is still clunky to apply, particularly in M+ content. It is still not a substitute for a really powerful contribution to group content such as Mystic Touch. A group Leech or Mastery Buff would align with the Class identity.

MM still can’t cast Heroism/ Bloodlust and is still unable to benefit from pet passives such as Predator’s Thirst when playing Lone Wolf. This can easily be solved by introducing a ‘Sac’ style talent that allows MM hunters to choose which passive to choose before dismissing a pet.

Survival Gameplay

Gameplay Loop –Remaining Issues

I’m sure you’ve seen a lot from us Survival players on this in the last two days, but the Flanking Strike change is really awful. To be specific, a lot of content can be chaotic and not being able to know (without a WeakAura) what the next button you press will do is not very welcome gameplay design.
I do not recognise the desire to reduce our ‘button bloat’. With the removal of Serpent Sting and Death Chakram, I do not believe this is an issue. I would like to see Flanking Strike return as a separate button.
The most egregious part of the new design is that pressing what you think is Kill Command might then make you fly into danger. This is very frustrating implementation and can only lead to hostility in group content.
Current Flanking Strike also does not align with the way in which Survival operates in a PvP setting, placing you at risk when implementing your normal rotation whilst kiting. It also contradicts the use of Aspect of the Eagle, making you leap to a target after consciously choosing to play at range for 15 seconds.
Flanking Strike also undermines many of our Kill Command tree interactions by reducing our control over our rotation.
Relatedly, Exposed Flank also targets mobs not in combat.
Not all of my feedback on this change, however, is negative. I hope that you can revert Flanking Strike to its previous iteration (in the last build) as a spender, but I also hope that you retain the ability to unlock it through pressing Kill Command three times (or some other iteration). I really like taking Flanking Strike out of its 30sec CD so that we can make the most of Exposed Flank and can see more Kill Command cleaves in our rotation.
Away from this change, it’s still really difficult to understand if the implementation of Grenade Juggler is intended? Currently, too many Explosive Shots are being generated in multiple target situations, wildly reducing the cooldown of Wildfire Bombs as a consequence of Wildfire Infusion.

Other Feedback / Issues

Our Mastery is not being doubled when in range of our pet.
Raptor Strike should be baseline given the issue of no melee tools to new Survival hunters at levels 1-10.
Merciless Blows and Contagious Reagents are still conflicting with each other. Both will spread Viper’s Venom to 2 other targets. If it is the intention for Contagious Reagents to spread exponentially when taken in conjunction with Merciless Blows then this is currently not functional.
Fury of the Eagle is still not worth taking even after its proper inclusion as a spell fully empowered by Tip of the Spear.
Sulfur-Lined Pockets puts Explosive Shot on cooldown.
Contagious Reagents is still applying Serpent Sting to just one target (3 times).
Please consider introducing Tip of the Spear as a spec resource akin to Arcane Charges.
Sic ‘Em is a fantastic change and so happy that you implemented this suggestion. However, to make the most out of Cull the Herd, I think that there is a strong argument to increase the damage of Bloodseeker. As a mid-tier talent its bleed damage is middling in comparison to Viper’s Venom, even taking into consideration the other part of the talent that increases our and our pet’s attack speed. Without this change, Cull the Herd will feel like an underwhelming talent for Survival.
I really like the change to the baseline Coordinated Assault, but the 20% increased damage is NYI.

Middle of Tree Bloat and Variety of Capstones

There are still too many talents in the middle of the tree in comparison to the higher tier / capstones. Many of the effects of these talents also don’t seem to be worth one talent point investment, an issue which gets worse the further down the tree you go. Many of these talents could be merged to regain their value. For example, Lunge still seems an unnecessary talent point after the range extension removal. This can be merged with another talent such as Improved Wildfire Bomb.

I am neutral on the change to Mongoose Bite, but the middle row bloat means that it’s hard to choose in M+ builds with so many competitor talents.

There are also still lots of throughput talents. Improved Wildfire Bomb, Tactical Advantage, Sweeping Spear, and Killer Companion are still just filling talent point slots in the tree. The latter two are particularly frustrating as they cost 2 points and remain gatekeepers to the capstones rather than representing anything exciting or meaningful to the playstyle.

Explosive Expert in particular is not only gatekeeping a capstone, it is a row 8 talent that provides just a 1 second Wildfire Bomb cd reduction per point – this is very underwhelming.

There are also lots of ideas in this feedback thread on introducing other new and interesting capstones (some of my ideas below)

Right hand Side of the Tree Suggestions

The changes to Sic ‘Em are a great start, but I’d still like to see you build more on the potential you’ve introduced with talents like Outland Venom, Bloodseeker, Contagious Reagents and take them further. Some of this will be helped through increasing the damage of Bloodseeker, but we still don’t have a means to generate AOE bleeds. So, suggestion remains:

Shrapnel Bomb: Replaces Wildfire Bomb. [Mongoose Bite / Raptor Strike] and Butchery apply Internal Bleeding, causing (x.x% of Attack power) damage over 9 sec. Internal Bleeding stacks up to 3 times.

Sweeping Spear: Your Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite damage is increased by 5/10% and your Butchery damage is increased by 25/50% against targets suffering from your bleed effects.

Killer Companion: Your pet damage is increased by 5/10% against bleeding targets.

Fury of the Eagle: You summon the spirit of Ohn’ahra, who furiously strikes all enemies in front of you, dealing [(93.2% of Attack power) * 9] Physical damage over 4 sec. Critical strike chance increased by 50% against any target below 20% health. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets. Kill Command cooldown resets reduce the cooldown of Fury of the Eagle by 3.0 sec.

Killing Streak: Fury of the Eagle now gains bonus critical strike chance against targets below 65% health, and Fury of the Eagle critical strikes gain cause the target to bleed for XX damage over 8 seconds.

Koeros-bleeding-hollow · June 26, 2024, 6:08pm

Feedback on Marksman Hunter Talents in The War Within Beta

Introduction:

Hello,

I’ve been a dedicated Hunter player for almost 20 years, playing across every expansion since the game’s release. My experience ranges from Cutting Edge raiding to mid-level Mythic+, and I’m here to provide detailed feedback on the Marksman Hunter talents in The War Within beta. While I appreciate the efforts made, there are several areas where the spec feels neglected and in need of more significant updates. Below, I outline the main issues and offer suggestions for improvement.

First Gate Talent Analysis:

Surging Shots vs. Streamline:

Issue: Surging Shots and Streamline are very similar, but Surging Shots is significantly stronger.
Suggestion: Balance these talents to offer more distinct and competitive choices. Streamline could use a buff or rework to match Surging Shots in utility and power.

Precise Shots and Crack Shot:

Issue: The 50% less focus buff to Precise Shots undermines the value of Crack Shot, reducing its effectiveness. While Crack Shot reduces Arcane Shot’s cost by 20, Precise Shots effectively reduces this effect to 10 focus.
Impact: This leads to poor synergy with Calling the Shots, as less Focus spent means less cooldown reduction on Trueshot.
Suggestion: Reevaluate Crack Shot’s mechanics or adjust its Focus reduction to make it more impactful. Consider applying similar benefits to Multi-Shot for consistency.

Improved Steady Shot:

Issue: This talent feels necessary for Steady Shot to function properly. Given the current Focus economy, Steady Shot’s relevance is limited in ST.
Suggestion: Make Improved Steady Shot baseline and offer more compelling talents in this slot.

Multi-Shot and Trick Shots:

Issue: Having to talent into Multi-Shot feels restrictive, especially considering other specs get significant AoE abilities baseline. The imbalance is evident when compared to specs like Fire Mage, which have multiple baseline AoE options.
Suggestion: Make Multi-Shot baseline and move Trick Shots up to its current position. This would align our AoE capabilities more closely with other classes.

Volley:

Feedback: Volley has become a signature AoE burst ability for Marksman Hunters.
Suggestion: Moving Volley up to Trick Shots’ current position would emphasize its importance and streamline the AoE talent path.

Second Gate Talent Analysis:

Careful Aim:

Issue: Careful Aim is problematic due to its mandatory nature in the talent path. It significantly skews the damage profile of Aimed Shot, making it very powerful above 70% health and weak below, which contributes to our ongoing single-target damage issues.
Suggestion: Rework or replace this talent. Consider adding an execute component, affecting targets between 100%-80% and 20%-0% health. At the very least, swap its position with Fan the Hammer to improve logical flow in the talent tree.

Death Blow and Killer Accuracy:

Issue: While it offers a significant buff, Killer Accuracy is a passive talent that feels uninspired.
Suggestion: Keep it as a potent, passive buff but consider incorporating it into Deathblow, potentially only affecting Kill Shots empowered by Deathblow.

Razor Fragments:

Issue: Moving Razor Fragments to the third gate reduces accessibility of a potent single-target talent and forces MM to take an AoE talent in ST to access the third gate. It’s cleave effect is also a bit weak.
Suggestion: Move Razor Fragments to Killer Accuracy’s current location and strengthen its’ cleave effect

Barrage and Rapid Fire Barrage:

Feedback: Rapid Fire Barrage is exciting but currently weaker than the old Rapid Fire + Double Tap combo and quite expensive at two talents.
Suggestion: Make Rapid Fire Barrage a choice node with Barrage, requiring only one point.

Night Hunter:

Issue: This talent provides a flat crit chance increase, which feels very passive and unengaging.
Suggestion: Rework it to affect the rotation more actively or add more interaction with our kit.

In the Rhythm:

Feedback: This talent is fine, though the six-second haste buff feels short.
Suggestion: Extend the duration of the haste buff slightly to improve its effectiveness.

Bulletstorm and Small Game Hunter:

Issue: Bulletstorm is fine alone, but combined with Small Game Hunter, it warps the damage profile of Multi-Shot in an unhealthy way.
Suggestion: Reassess the synergy between these talents to ensure a balanced and properly prioritized AoE damage profile.

Lock and Load:

Issue: Mandatory pathing through Lock and Load is unfortunate, leading to overcapping on Aimed Shot charges in combination with effects from Readiness and Black Arrow, especially during Trueshot.
Suggestion: Reevaluate the pathing to avoid forcing players into overcap situations, and consider the interaction with other Aimed Shot reset effects.

Steady Focus:

Issue: This talent is widely disliked and feels like a chore to use, often avoided despite being optimal.
Suggestion: Rework Steady Focus to be less tedious and more engaging.

Chimera Shot:

Issue: This talent has lacked a strong use case in practice for a long time.
Suggestion: Rework Chimera Shot to be a powerful single-target/2T cleave ability with an instant cast or add additional effects to make it more appealing.

Hydra’s Bite:

Issue: This talent feels weak, only automating multi-dotting with a small damage increase.
Suggestion: Increase the damage bonus or add more impactful effects to make it worthwhile.

Tactical Reload:

Issue: Another passive talent that doesn’t alter gameplay significantly.
Suggestion: Replace or rework it to add more engaging mechanics.

Lone Wolf:

Issue: Lone Wolf forces Marksman Hunters to sacrifice pet defensives and utility for minimal gain, as the 5% damage increase is factored into the spec’s overall tuning. Mechanically, we are trading something for nothing because the 5% from Lone Wolf would be made up for in normal spec balancing if the talent didn’t exist.
Suggestion: Either integrate full pet utility alongside Lone Wolf or replace it with something more meaningful and interesting.

Third Gate Talent Analysis:

Legacy of the Windrunners and Focused Aim:

Issue: Legacy feels weak and Focused Aim is yet more passive X% damage, they should both be single-point talents. Making them two-point talents seems to compensate for the lack of ideas and options in this critical part of the tree.
Suggestion: Convert these to single-point talents and introduce more engaging and impactful talents to fill the third gate. Legacy could also use a buff to its Rapid Fire proc rate.

Wailing Arrow:

Feedback: The new concept is appealing, but it needs full integration of effects and clarity on the applied DoT.

Readiness:

Issue: While the additional Wind Arrows in Trueshot are beneficial, the multiple Aimed Shot resets can lead to overcapping and lost damage potential.
Suggestion: Replace the Aimed Shot reset effect with something that avoids overcapping and wasted potential.

Kill Zone:

Issue: This talent is very weak for a third-gate talent. The 8% damage increase in a six-second window is minimal, and the Ignore Line of Sight effect is highly situational.
Suggestion: Rework Kill Zone to provide a more substantial and universally useful effect.

Small Game Hunter:

Issue: This talent is a passive damage increase taken to the extreme. It warps our damage profile in a way that required very heavy-handed nerfs to address.
Suggestion: It would have been better to replace it with a talent that is actually interesting.

True Shot and Eagletalon’s True Focus:

Issue: Requiring four points to get the full cooldown effect feels excessive, and the baseline effect of True Shot is underwhelming. The new effect on Eagletalon’s True Focus is also very weak. A 30% Arcane Shot with Precise Shots is just a very underwhelming 51% Arcane Shot. This will not move the needle on munching Precise Shots procs in Trueshot at all. Arcane Shot will still only be cast when there is nothing else to press in Trueshot. It also changes nothing about AoE in Trueshot because we are still required to cast Multi-Shot every other ability in Trueshot as before. This is one of the most commonly complained about issues with Trueshot.
Suggestion: Bake the effects of Eagletalon’s True Focus into True Shot and rework its new effect.

General Concerns:

The third gate should be the most exciting part of the talent tree, but it currently suffers from a lack of engaging and impactful talents. Many talents feel passive or underwhelming, failing to add depth to the gameplay.

Summary of Overarching Issues:

Prevalence of Passive Talents:

The talent tree is saturated with passive talents that offer minimal engagement. This includes talents like Night Hunter and Tactical Reload which do not add meaningful interactions to the gameplay.

Dead and Baseline Talents:

Talents such as Chimera Shot are effectively dead due to their lack of practical application. Others like Multi-Shot, Improved Steady Shot, and Crack Shot should be baseline given their fundamental role in the rotation.

Negative Synergies:

There are numerous instances of negative synergy within the tree:
- Reductions to Arcane Shot Focus cost can undermine Trueshot cooldown reduction.
- Buffs to Multi-Shot make it overshadow the rest of our AoE toolkit.
- Attempts to prevent “munching” of Precise Shots during Trueshot are ineffective.
- Steady Shot remains weak and unappealing, highlighting issues with basic filler abilities.

Single-Target Damage Issues:

The spec’s single-target damage profile is poor, compounded by talents like Careful Aim and the charge-limited nature of Aimed Shot. This suggests a fundamental flaw in the current design of Marksman Hunter.

Talent Tree Structure:

The requirement to take AoE talents to progress to the third gate underscores a lack of single-target talents.
Two-point talents in the third gate seem designed to artificially limit capstone access due to an insufficient number of talents.
This results in a lack of meaningful choices and highlights the sparse nature of the talent tree.

Comparative Lack of Capstones:

Only six out of 26 DPS specs have three capstones, with Hunters having two of these specs. The third Hunter spec has only four capstones. This is notably lower compared to other classes where many have five or more capstones, indicating an imbalance and lack of comprehensive updates.

Conclusion:

The current state of Marksman Hunter talents in The War Within beta reveals significant foundational issues that go beyond simple talent adjustments. The overwhelming number of passive and dead talents, combined with negative synergies and poor single-target performance, suggest that a more comprehensive rework is necessary. The sparse and poorly structured talent tree further exacerbates these issues, limiting player choice and engagement.

It is clear that the current iteration of Marksman Hunter requires more than just minor updates. A thorough re-evaluation and rework of the core spec are needed to address these inherent flaws and ensure that Marksman Hunters can be competitive and enjoyable to play.

Thank you for considering this feedback. I hope these insights will contribute to meaningful improvements for the spec.

Brewmonko-illidan · June 26, 2024, 8:03pm

Can we please have a MM rework in 11.1?

Since Blizzard hasn’t react to community feedback for MM since they started to collect feedback, it’s too late now to fix MM I guess.

At this point MM still has some huge problems and needs some bandaids:

we need like 6-8 points to opt in for AoE wich leads to a significant loss of ST dps and close to no freedom to pick “nice to have” talents
→ make Rapid Fire Barrage a separate ability and turn Barage into a choose node betweed RFB and Barrage
→ make Multi Shot and Trick Shots baseline
→ remove 3 target requirement of Trick Shots
bring back the current 2P as talent at the position of Trick Shots or Volley (and put Volley at TS position)
→ What is the problem here? Everyone loves the set bonus, no one wants to press MS-RF/AiS back and forth… Just let us cleave for 6s after pressing MS again… I don’t get it
make Legacy of the Windrunners a 1 pointer
buff Steady Shot damage
→ this ability does nothing now and just feels bad
rework Improved Steady Shot
→ make the current version baseline, maybe buffed to 20 focus
→ make it deal 100% more dmg instead

Gabitha-nagrand · June 26, 2024, 8:07pm

I can’t put my finger on it, but BM Hunter just doesn’t feel right. Something is not meshing right and it doesn’t feel like it got as much umph as it should have or survivability.

Daieon-dalaran · June 26, 2024, 8:41pm

This is a cross-post from: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-hunters/517026/113 - Folks on that side of the pond feel they don’t get the same visibility.

Survival Hunter Feedback:

After testing Survival extensively the past few hours in both PvE and PvP (the little I could), I came up with the following suggestions:

-Important to note: These are specifically intended to be from a gameplay perspective, numbers can be tuned appropriately afterwards.

Flanking Strike: After casting Kill Command 3 times, your next Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite is replaced With Flanking Strike.
-Flanking Strike now inherits all benefits from Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite.

Tactical Advantage node: To prevent it from being a lame % damage increased, it has the additional effect: each time you use Flanking Strike, you reduce the CD of Disengage by x seconds.

Spearhead: Duration increased to 15 seconds. Base CD is now 1 minute.
Your pet charges to bleed your target for 15 seconds and increases your critical strike and critical strike damage by x% for 15 seconds.
-While Spearhead is active, Kill Command’s chance to reset its CD is increased by 15% and Kill Command casts reduce the CD of Aspect of the Eagle by x seconds.

Bombardier node replaces Deadly Duo node (it’s now the capstone node following Spearhead). Bombardier retains the same effects.

Coordinated Assault: You still charge with alongside your pet and have 20% increased damage for 20 seconds, but no longer increases the chance of Kill Command to reset (baked into Spearhead instead).
-Now instead, while Coordinated Assault is active, replaces your Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite with Flanking Strike for x seconds.
-Flanking Strike node is not needed for this to take effect.
-If the above suggestion proves to be too strong (too much gap closing), Coordinated Assault now makes your Raptor Strike/Mongoose bite apply some bleeding or do more damage at a reduced focus cost.

Deadly Duo in now in place of Bombardier and is redesigned: When Coordinated Assault Ends, Your Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite is replaced by Flanking Strike for x seconds.

Aspect of the Eagle: In addition to its current effects, while Aspect of the Eagle is active, casting Kill Command increases the duration of Aspect of the Eagle by 1 second.
-During Aspect of the Eagle, Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite cannot be replaced by Flanking Strike (to not disrupt the ranged combat flow with a gap closer).
-When Aspect of the Eagle ends, it replaces Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite with Flanking Strike for the next attack ← This one could be in a talent node somewhere.

Little addition for PvP: Mending Bandage is no longer interrupted by DoT (magical) damage.
With the amount of newly added pets and DoT procs with hero specs, this skill has become almost impossible to cast during combat.

Final notes:
This creates a clearly defined and fun synergistic distinction between a melee damage CD with Coordinated Assault and Spearhead being more of a ranged damage CD so now you have to option to harass your enemies from range and/or melee more effectively than ever, or you can just juggle between them both as you please for a much more cohesive playstyle.
Coordinated assault is your melee centric CD with the clearly defined purpose of harassing your opponent from melee with more gap closers and damage.
Spearhead now synergies with Aspect of the Eagle and perfectly complement each other for a more temporary ranged playstyle as well. Truly embracing the skirmisher playstyle the Survival Hunter evokes.

All these changes are suggested with the purpose of FUN in mind, numbers can always be tuned for the sake of balance.

Huntsen-alleria · June 26, 2024, 9:14pm

I can’t emphasize how bad this would be if it went live. Ten of them come to mind right off the bat. This just takes the agency of gameplay away from the player in a big way.
I’ll just put some of the biggest offenders of how it would do this that I can think of at this time.

How Wildfire bombs works by exploding in a cone, this would constantly throw you out of position which would make you lose on getting maximum effect out them and now that Wildfire Bombs cost focus/resource would makes it extra worse.

So many Mobs have a “Get away from me or die” mechanic I’d have to choose to either not build focus/resource or leap to my death.

Lots of mechanics where you don’t want to be in an area this would again throw you out of postion and more then likely into instant death while your trying to build focus/resource.

Some Mobs, well lots of them now a days would leap you right to directly underneath it killing you instantly because the mechanic doe’s not want you undearneath it. For instance Grand vizier Ertan from Vortex Pinnacle from the season two of Dragonflight dungeons. It had a constant damage effect underneath it, don’t get to close or die. Harpoon at the wrong angle and die as with flanking strike’s leap at a certain distance. I see all kind of bugs in further content with this.

Got a group strategy where everyone groups up together at a certain time. Well again don’t build up focus/resource while doing that making Survival lesser.

I could go on with how as a hole this would be a Net negative then a positive. I hope someone is getting the picture of what I mean.

This would make this talent SO dangerous to use the player would have two options if it went live.
One, make a weakaura that plants an icon in you field of view that you would constantly have to keep track of. Then plan everything you do all around Kill Command and I mean Everything.
Two, Just not take this talent at all and the two subsequent talents that go with it “Exposed Flank” and “Tactical Advantage” but you HAVE to take “Tactical Advantage” to move down the tree making half of its effect useless.

So I beg the developers/person who decides on these things or who ever can do something about this. PLEASE PLEASE change this.

Tetrarch-darkspear · June 26, 2024, 10:00pm

I didnt like the old version either, but if they want to get rid fo button bloat,

dont morph a ranged skill into a melee skill.

How about they morph a melee skill with a melee skill?

like have raptor/mongoose turn into flanking ever 3rd cast?

or combine tos/coord assault with flanking?

Eskers-uldum · June 26, 2024, 10:56pm

Black Arrow Feedback: What if it just resets the cooldown of Explosive Shot like it did in past expansions?

Saiquallis-tichondrius · June 26, 2024, 10:58pm

Minor Survival Feedback.

Why does Quick Shot fire an Arcane Shot. Nothing in our tree or about Survival Hunters really has anything to do with Arcane Shot. Like the talent itself works great, free Explosive Shots is great.

It’s just sort of an odd duck flavourwise and visually.