New Coordinated Assault is pog.
New Mongoose Fury is dog (maintenance buff is not exciting gameplay).
New Flanking Strike is truly an awful change. I’m pretty indifferent toward whether Flanking Strike should be a builder or spender (though spender felt more fun), however replacing Kill Command with Flanking Strike is really annoying and removes player agency. It removes the ability to use Kill Command from range if you need to (because it might charge you to boss or just be out of range entirely), and the fact that it doesn’t interact with any Kill Command talents means 1 in 4 presses of your KC button just don’t interact with several parts of your tree.
Flanking Strike should be reverted to being its own button (don’t just remove the charge, then it’s just a glorified KC damage buff every 3 casts which - what’s the point?).
7 Likes
Death Chakram gone, good Change.
Less Buttons to press in a ST situation.
Less buttons to press in AoE Situation.
Flanking Strike is a Bad change because it now forces you into melee range, when in the case of a melee mechanic you press Kill command among other buttons to fill in the rotation.
Needless to say it needs to be separated from Kill command. In it’s current iteration we see how applying Tip stacks is part of the resource management of the spec. But this makes the spec ultimately clunky and inhibitive to play in a situation when you would like to be able to control your character.
In all honesty, Having Mongoose Bite and Raptor Strike as abilities with the current builds from the Hero Talent Trees: making us use Bomb and Kill command more often in our rotation, these buttons feel irrelevant to even use in a rotational gameplay loop.
Mongoose Fury changes make the class already feel like the Mongoose Fury buff is strictly just maintenance. If it falls off, Oh well I Guess. There should be some gameplay variation if there were to be a Strictly Single Target Situation which Mongoose fury fit into as a damage variable. If Mongoose Fury had interactions with other aspects of how the spec played, It would make it more appealing. That is however not the case on that side of the talent tree or Hero Talents.
7 Likes
Survival Hunter feedback round 3:
There are some very great changes. After playing around with them, the new Sic’ Em feels very fun to play with and is an appealing talent now. Coordinated Assault is much easier to use, and Quick Shot feels nice not having so much RNG behind it.
However, there are also some changes that are heading in the wrong direction.
Flanking Strike
Flanking Strike is a massive step backwards for several reasons:
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Kill Command is a ranged ability and would be cast from ranged when we needed to be out of melee. Now Flanking Strike forces you into melee. This is bad in several situations, like running out of mechanics in PvE or kiting in PvP.
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Flanking Strike does not interact with any of the Kill Command talents. We have an entire hero tree revolving around Kill Command, and half of the Survival tree revolves around it as well.
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The version of Flanking Strike last week was incredible. This was not a contributor to button bloat or GCD bloat. It felt very nice having it as an individual button, in our own control, that could be used as a powerful focus spender and tip generator.
Mongoose Bite
I am neutral on the Mongoose Bite changes. Mongoose Bite had unique animations for every stack of Mongoose Fury (mostly the 5-stack) and we lost those, which I am sad to see go. Otherwise, it’s just fine. One downside is that this spell is just a red Raptor Strike now. As long as you press it once every 10 seconds, it will do more damage than Raptor Strike for the entire fight. Why do both of these exist?
Bloody Claws
Bloody Claws, somehow, got even worse with the Mongoose Bite change. This talent was already very unappealing. I still firmly believe this needs to buff Mongoose Fury in some way, like buffing the damage per stack of Mongoose Fury. We don’t need more Kill Command reset chances and 6% extra chance from Bloody Claws is not good at all.
10 Likes
Beta Build 6/25/24 Hunter Feedback
Disclaimer: Most of my feedback is going to be Marksmanship focused.
Miscellaneous (Edited to put this at the top because the Lunar Storm point is one of the things I feel most strongly about in this post.)
Odds and ends that I feel compelled to put into writing. Could be about anything!
- Lunar Storm from the Sentinel tree HAS to change. Please don’t make this another Wild Spirits situation where we’re panic typing to our tanks not to move out of our circles. Just as a point of comparison, Voidweaver Priest’s Entropic Rift will track and follow enemies. You’re telling me that our literal BIRD has to be stationary at the point its summoned? It either needs to attach to the initial enemy targeted or it needs to be able to follow your target. This should not be controversial or a point of contention between players and developers.
- I didn’t play hunter way back in the day but during Pandaria Black Arrow was a Survival thing, and the Black Arrow / Explosive Shot proc iteration of that era was the golden age. I don’t know if or when the other specs had access to it but its strange that Survival can’t be the Hero Talent spec that has Black Arrow.
Class Tree
- Death Chakram
It might be a hot take but I’m not particularly sad to see this ability go. As for the reason given being ‘button bloat’ I’m not entirely sure this was a bad culprit. In most play it was just one of those ‘push whenever its up’ buttons and pruning those kinds of things is fine in my opinion. There were moments when you’d sit on it for the damage amp but as long as overall damage is adequately adjusted I’m just as happy to not have this. My biggest concern with this change coincides with some MM specific issues with focus economy. Death Chakram generated 21 focus every 45 seconds which isn’t very much overall, but getting that focus going into a damage amp or CD was really really nice. Now with Multi-Shot being more expensive as well, going into an AoE burst phase is going to be really rough. More on focus economy in my MM section ahead.
- Intimidation and Bursting / Concussive Shot
Its pretty clear that Intimidation is going to be a dead talent for MM at this point. Despite the changes to Lone Wolf, in any content where you would want a stun, you won’t want to lose that damage buff even at its current 5%. With today’s changes Bursting and Concussive Shot are now on the left side of the tree locked exclusively behind Intimidation. If there are no changes to the way MM interacts with Intimidation I will probably never want that talent ever, which means I have to take it as a completely dead point if I want to get Bursting Shot. Aside from the PvP implications which I’m woefully unqualified to discuss, Bursting Shot can be extremely useful for dungeon content. Since its now in the class tree instead of the MM spec tree, I want to have access to it. Intimidation could also be used in this content but practically speaking, it won’t be. Losing 5% damage might be close enough to warrant a pet in single target situations if you need the utility, but in AoE there is no way we are going to give up that damage for a single stun, especially now with the changes to how ‘stops’ are going to work in dungeon content. I just cannot grasp why you’re so against MM specifically having that utility. I want to close this section by quoting the Beta Development patch notes regarding Lone Wolf - " The opportunity cost of having your pet out as a Marksmanship Hunter is so high that it can feel as though you’re locked out of all pet based utility, especially in AoE situations. Marksmanship is always going to be the Hunter spec that provides more throughput without a pet, but lowering this talent’s power should help to make those times where you’re the only lust or need an extra defensive feel a bit less bad." “FEEL A BIT LESS BAD” - as in you know it still feels bad, we know it still feels bad, and it quacks like a duck. Its still bad. Not to mention nothing has changed with regard to the AoE potential, 10% or 5% the result will be the same for how it feels to play. This really doesn’t need to be the point of friction you insist on making it. Please.
I was completely wrong here as of this build. After further testing it appears that Intimidation with Territorial Instincts will now auto dismiss the pet and you don’t lose Lone Wolf stacks. This is better.
- Explosive Shot
I like this ability but I’m a bit confused about the intent here. I know Survival has a lot of interactions with Explosive Shot but I’m coming at this from an MM perspective. Is the intent that Explosive Shot gets used single target? Because that’s kind of how its shaping up to feel. With the new talent replacing Death Chakram being another 8% damage increase, Explosive Shot is quickly turning into one of those short CD ‘push whenever its up’ buttons. So the read I’m getting on this is that Death Chakram every 45 seconds is button bloat, but Explosive Shot every 30 seconds isn’t? At least Death Chakram generated a little focus instead of costing focus. If they’re both buttons that we’ll (mostly) want to be using on cooldown in both single target and AoE then what makes one bloat but not the other? I’m genuinely curious. What makes a button ‘bloat’ instead of a rotational ability? Is it synergy with the rest of our kit? If so then at least for MM Explosive Shot doesn’t really synergize with anything else we do - its just a button we hit every 30 seconds. I might be overcooked on this point but like I said, I’m a bit confused by the intent here.
- Intimidation / Explosive Shot / Binding Shot talent row
I talked about this in my previous post so I’ll keep this brief; having to path through this row is a bit odd. All three of these abilities are AoE or dungeon focused. For a single target raid fight all three of these are odd picks. As just discussed in my last point, if Explosive Shot is good enough to use single target then I guess this is less of a concern. Previously I was advocating for swapping Explosive Shot and Death Chakram’s locations, a solution that is now moot with the removal of Death Chakram. This is a minor issue comparatively.
Marksmanship Tree
Basically nothing has changed since my post two weeks ago which is frustrating and disappointing. This tree was a step in the right direction but it still needs a lot of TLC put into it. If this is the tree going into TWW launch then MM will be in some trouble.
- Trueshot
I’ve got to go back in time here for a second but Trueshot has never felt as good as it did in Legion. Obviously MM is very different than it used to be, but Trueshot giving 40% haste was the best iteration of Trueshot. Nothing feels quite as neutering as entering a Trueshot window and then having to weave in Multi-Shots and Arcane Shots with a normal length GCD. With that out of the way, I’m concerned about how Trueshot feels in the Beta as of this build. Losing our S3 and S4 tier from Dragonflight feels massively bad during Trueshot. That set bonus was such a good QoL for us. Being able to pound out Aimed Shots while keeping Trickshots running with Rapid Fire is what you should be striving to replicate. Eagletalon’s True Focus’ new iteration feels like a bandaid on a gushing wound. Yeah its nice that we only have to cast one Arcane Shot or Multi-Shot in between Aimed Shots during Trueshot, but what if we didn’t have to cast any? If Trueshot gave haste and our GCD was lower during that window then I think this would be fine, but that’s not how Trueshot has worked for like six years. As it stands now Trueshot will be a mess of overcapping charges of Aimed Shot and feeling like we’re missing out on casts. As the expansion goes on and we get some haste I’m sure it will feel better, but we shouldn’t have to wait until 11.2 for our only cooldown to be fun. I can’t stress this enough - it feels bad as it is as of this Beta Build.
- AoE talents
Our AoE kit is too expensive. Obviously we can’t have every talent in the tree, but getting a good feeling AoE build off the ground has less than zero wiggle room. Too many capstones are AoE focused and too many of the last gate talents are too much of an investment to justify taking over spreading those 3-4 points around (looking at you Wailing Arrow). Salvo is in a decent position because the 3 points leading up to it are useful all the time, whereas Legacy of the Windrunners is completely useless in AoE, yet we have to invest two points in it to get to Wailing Arrow, which seems like it will only be taken for AoE. It feels like we have to make too many compromises to have what a baseline AoE kit should have. Bake Trick Shots into Multi-Shot, or make Multi-Shot baseline, but something has to give here.
- Focus Economy
In the previous Beta Build we were able to get by without taking Improved Steady Shot and we were happy that Steady Shot wasn’t really needed. That should tell you all you need to know about how focus works in MM currently. If you insist of focus economy being balanced around using Steady Shot then Steady Shot should generate focus baseline and not need to waste a talent point making it have the bare minimum functionality. However, balancing focus economy while pretending Steady Shot doesn’t exist would make the spec feel better in general. Optimal play would be rewarded by not needing to use that ability while sub optimal play would still have a way to generate some focus on demand to compensate. Which leads me to Multi-Shot; increasing the focus cost of an ability that we’re only pressing to activate Trick Shots feels bad - especially with the damage decreases to Multi-Shot in this build (which are completely justified). This seems like a disconnect between the community and the devs but the way focus management works in MM with Steady Shot just isn’t fun. If focus management was more Rapid Fire based I think that would go a long way to making the spec play and feel better. The less Steady Shot the better.
11 Likes
Flanking strike should not replace Kill command if anything, it should replace Raptor strike/Moongoose bite
1 Like
It’s already pretty strong. It’s the damage of 6.2 Butcheries over 2.67 GCDs.
Adding any part of the Season 3 tier bonuses would make it required for all PvE content and quite likely even PvP.
Hm, ok. I think it could be more interactive still. Even a nerfed version of the S3 2-piece bonus would make it more satisfying to press.
Really seems like they missed the mark with the Flanking Strike change.
7 Likes
Marksmanship feedback:
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I had hoped that this week would contain more MM tree iteration, and changes based on feedback, so to see the main features being nerfs aimed at Multi-shot’s viability in single target is disappointing.
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Multi-shot (and Survival’s Butchery) should be baseline for MM (and BM too, I guess), and the aoe-activating effects of these abilities should be baked in to those baseline spells.
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Lone Wolf being 5% damage going into TWW is fine, assuming the damage output of LW vs Pets is close enough to make this choice one of personal preference. The new functionality of Territorial Instincts is acceptable with the assumption that the pet it summons to stun the target does not stick around after and does not have a conflicting impact on LW’s buff itself. I am 96% that this is the case and the summoned pet works within the design of LW. However, it is frustrating that the Bursting Shot/Scatter Shot node is locked behind Intimidation. LW MM players needing to spend an extra talent to get a similar Intimidation functionality to Survival and BM players is frustrating as well. Territorial Instincts should be built in to the base Intimidation spell.
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Lust/Heroism needs to be a Hunter baseline spell and receive the same quality of life change that Territorial Instincts grants Intimidation.
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Lone Wolf must be baseline and reworked to grant access to pet family passives like leech, stamina, speed, as well as mortal strike.
Hunter Hero Trees are still in need of work. Sentinel gets good results, but is entirely passive and dull. Dark Ranger and Pack Leader are undercooked and I hope they will have time to get the attention they need in to be real, functional trees in TWW.
9 Likes
There was no interaction to the 2-piece beyond using it like a Death Chakram without the focus generation. It was just a crit buff.
Without WFI or the threat of overriding a WFB DoT, the 4-piece likewise was just a free WFB GCD for… no real interaction. The passive throw before that was just that: passive.
Such could fit as talents, but for either effect to be remotely noticeable even while keeping FotE balanced, FotE’s own damage would have to be so badly nerfed that you’d typically want to cancel the channel asap. They should not be wrapped into the base ability itself. (Arguably even the execute bonus shouldn’t unless its base execute range were increased to <35% hp.)
Mongoose Bite just becomes a buff to always keep up and not to really think about all too much. Instead if the ability is to remain it should be more integral to some degree - even simply buffing the stacks to encourage you to press it more or at least more consistently especially in ST.
Missed opportunities here. Whilst your goals of button bloat are noble they feel mistargeted. Mongoose Bite is functionally similar to Raptor Strike at this point. If Mongoose Bite was shifted to Raptor’s position then subsequent talents can alter the Mongoose Fury window. This could have been achieved by making tip more integral. Tips consumed can extend the window or generate an additional stack. Butchery could generate a stack, creating a parrel on each side of the tree and tying in Merciless Blows more gracefully. Choice nodes to extend the duration or decrease the max stacks. Additionally each stack could increase bleed/dot damage giving synergy with kill shots, Outland Venom & Serpent String.
Speaking of Serpent String I think this needs to be reintroduced as a button, as currently the main ways of pulling are bombs and explosive shots which aren’t ideal - its okay it isn’t a rotational main stay, most classes have a tool for just pulling mobs.
My opinions of flanking aren’t as strong as others, but without a doubt it shouldn’t be tied to kill command at the very least, a charge on a ranged ability brings contention with the spec and Aspect of the Eagle make this an odd choice. Having a alternative single target button is needed in the spec as a lot of the kit cleaves atm.
Bloody Claws is a good idea in concept however lacks that oomph to go alongside it. Even simply changing it to a stat value by 2% Most likely either haste for faster spending or mastery empathize the pet with each stack works better - increasing the pets attack speed or a flat damage buff for the pet.
Quick shot is also just weird to be honest it doesn’t detract but what does it truly add to the spec?
Additionally, I believe that the cooldowns could do with some revisions. Relentless Primal Ferocity is a good example of how to enhance a cooldown. Bombardier meanwhile is thematically cool and is so close but needs some tweaks. Perhaps a better approach is to simply change your bomb and explosive shots, or for them to react together in some way - similarly to how SL Volaille bomb worked.
Spearhead on the other hand I don’t know it just feels super lacklustre; at the very least the GCD should be taken off now its tied to the pet. The duration doesn’t feel as if it lasts long enough to justify the GCD either in its current form. Combining Coordinated and Spearhead feel super awkward although better as Death Chakram is gone. It would be cooler if this could have some AOE integration by rewarding good play. Being able to spread the dot through the use of Mongoose Bite & Merciless Blows.
2 Likes
Survival feedback on new change to Flanking strike
ITS TERRIBLE!
I do not want to be forced into melee at times.
Many times, especially in pvp, i wnat to use RANGED abilites only, until its time to go in for melee dps.
I dont want to
HAVE TO LOSE KILL COMMAND every 3rd use and lose a good ranged dps filler just so I bounce in and then
LOSE en escape tool AKA Disengage jsut to get out to range again.
Poor design
If you are going to combine anything,
combine
kill command with arcane shot or serpents sting or concussive shot or explosive shot.
Better yet— morph it into Death Chakram every 3rd cast-- as now we have also LOST
a very good rdps skill with a flanking strike that does poor damage to boot.
and then combine
flanking strike with spearhead or coordinated assault
2 Likes
This week’s Survival changes are very disappointing. On last week’s build it was an interesting spec with lots of depth and room for skill expression; this week we’ve lost nearly all of that.
Flanking Strike: I think enough people have expressed their thoughts on this change here but I’ll mention it for completeness. Last week’s version of Flanking Strike was very fun and did a lot to help smooth over both our focus and tip of the spear economy. This new version accomplishes none of that. This is a solution in search of a problem, and it’s not a particularly effective solution to whatever the perceived problem is. Please revert it.
Mongoose Bite: Yes, there was rotational tension between Mongoose Fury and other parts of Survival’s new kit, but I think it was a healthy level of tension that allowed room for skill expression in setting up Mongoose Bite windows while managing everything else. Mongoose Bite windows are one of the most interesting parts of retail survival’s rotation, and it would really be a shame to lose that. There’s no reason for Mongoose Bite to exist separately from Raptor Strike if it’s just going to be a maintenance buff. Anything but this, please.
Coordinated Assault: I understand wanting to move away from a cooldown based around pet attacks, as it could be a bit awkward at times. However, turning CA into a flat damage amp is not the way to go. It doesn’t have to be pet attacks, but please give us something more to play around during CA. This is less offensive than the changes to Flanking Strike and Mongoose Bite, but it still just feels less interesting than it used to be.
Most of the other changes are fine, but these three things really break the spec for me. Last week’s version of survival was so good, why gut it like this?
11 Likes
On the flip side of this new update. I think most of these changes are really good! It really helps the feel to playing hunter and makes flanking strike just feel like its sitting there waiting for your focus to drop below a certain point.
I really like the changes here trying to make the kit feel more coherent from a gameplay perspective. Cheers to Blizzard for listening to feedback.
The changes to the class tree are very good, especially in light of the new M+ affix mechanics.
However, you have got a very muddled pathing problem in the centre of the BM tree.
Suggested Solution:
(1) Kindred Spirits is now a 1 point talent.
(2) Kindred Spirits is now where Pack Tactics was.
(3) Pack Tactics is now where Improved Kill Command was.
(4) Improved Kill Command is now where Kindred Spirits was.
(5) Improved Kill Command is now a 2-point talent (5%/10%).
(6) Wild Call is now where Hunter’s Prey was.
(7) Hunter’s Prey is now where Wild Call was.
This will significantly improve builds allowing for Wild Call through to Dire Beast without having to take the extraneous Kill Shot (Hunter’s Prey and therefore Venom’s Bite) talents.
It will also free up a point for everyone by moving the utterly useless Kindred Spirits talent that no-one ever takes to a spot in the tree where it is easily skipped without causing any pathing issues whatsoever.
Please consider making these simple changes.
Also, for the love of Elune, please fix the hero talents (Pack Assault for Pack Leader, and Shadow Lash for Dark Ranger) so they don’t explicitly buff Call of the Wild as Call of the Wild will not be in all builds.
2 Likes
Ok Blizzard. Where is chakram? Why is it gone?? It’s very useful when starting out a fight with a mob and I’m not happy that you’ve removed the chakram from the hunter. I don’t understand why you should remove that when it’s just fine. Maybe I’m the only one here who like using chakram on my hunter but still, I’m not happy that you’ve removed it. I would be happy if you put that back.
4 Likes
Glad to see Death Chakram go.
7 Likes
Chakrams going is fine. It contributed too much to chaining burst CDs back to back when you just want to start doing damage. Moving the damage to your spec’s key CDs makes much more sense.
Only change I’d like to see on Surv’s side is Spearhead inheriting the focus generation Chakrams had.
Also move some chakram abilities into Sentinel. Cause Sentinels should be throwing chakrams, not owls.
8 Likes
Territorial Instincts as it was previously worded was a dead talent for two specs and now it’s a dead talent for all three. If you’re running MM with a pet then it’s useless, and if you’re using Lone Wolf then you’re probably not gonna run Intimidation in the first place.
The only way to make it work without feeling terrible on Lone Wolf MM is to give us an instant dismiss ability.
4 Likes