It’s already pretty strong. It’s the damage of 6.2 Butcheries over 2.67 GCDs.
Adding any part of the Season 3 tier bonuses would make it required for all PvE content and quite likely even PvP.
Hm, ok. I think it could be more interactive still. Even a nerfed version of the S3 2-piece bonus would make it more satisfying to press.
Really seems like they missed the mark with the Flanking Strike change.
7 Likes
Marksmanship feedback:
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I had hoped that this week would contain more MM tree iteration, and changes based on feedback, so to see the main features being nerfs aimed at Multi-shot’s viability in single target is disappointing.
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Multi-shot (and Survival’s Butchery) should be baseline for MM (and BM too, I guess), and the aoe-activating effects of these abilities should be baked in to those baseline spells.
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Lone Wolf being 5% damage going into TWW is fine, assuming the damage output of LW vs Pets is close enough to make this choice one of personal preference. The new functionality of Territorial Instincts is acceptable with the assumption that the pet it summons to stun the target does not stick around after and does not have a conflicting impact on LW’s buff itself. I am 96% that this is the case and the summoned pet works within the design of LW. However, it is frustrating that the Bursting Shot/Scatter Shot node is locked behind Intimidation. LW MM players needing to spend an extra talent to get a similar Intimidation functionality to Survival and BM players is frustrating as well. Territorial Instincts should be built in to the base Intimidation spell.
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Lust/Heroism needs to be a Hunter baseline spell and receive the same quality of life change that Territorial Instincts grants Intimidation.
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Lone Wolf must be baseline and reworked to grant access to pet family passives like leech, stamina, speed, as well as mortal strike.
Hunter Hero Trees are still in need of work. Sentinel gets good results, but is entirely passive and dull. Dark Ranger and Pack Leader are undercooked and I hope they will have time to get the attention they need in to be real, functional trees in TWW.
9 Likes
There was no interaction to the 2-piece beyond using it like a Death Chakram without the focus generation. It was just a crit buff.
Without WFI or the threat of overriding a WFB DoT, the 4-piece likewise was just a free WFB GCD for… no real interaction. The passive throw before that was just that: passive.
Such could fit as talents, but for either effect to be remotely noticeable even while keeping FotE balanced, FotE’s own damage would have to be so badly nerfed that you’d typically want to cancel the channel asap. They should not be wrapped into the base ability itself. (Arguably even the execute bonus shouldn’t unless its base execute range were increased to <35% hp.)
Mongoose Bite just becomes a buff to always keep up and not to really think about all too much. Instead if the ability is to remain it should be more integral to some degree - even simply buffing the stacks to encourage you to press it more or at least more consistently especially in ST.
Missed opportunities here. Whilst your goals of button bloat are noble they feel mistargeted. Mongoose Bite is functionally similar to Raptor Strike at this point. If Mongoose Bite was shifted to Raptor’s position then subsequent talents can alter the Mongoose Fury window. This could have been achieved by making tip more integral. Tips consumed can extend the window or generate an additional stack. Butchery could generate a stack, creating a parrel on each side of the tree and tying in Merciless Blows more gracefully. Choice nodes to extend the duration or decrease the max stacks. Additionally each stack could increase bleed/dot damage giving synergy with kill shots, Outland Venom & Serpent String.
Speaking of Serpent String I think this needs to be reintroduced as a button, as currently the main ways of pulling are bombs and explosive shots which aren’t ideal - its okay it isn’t a rotational main stay, most classes have a tool for just pulling mobs.
My opinions of flanking aren’t as strong as others, but without a doubt it shouldn’t be tied to kill command at the very least, a charge on a ranged ability brings contention with the spec and Aspect of the Eagle make this an odd choice. Having a alternative single target button is needed in the spec as a lot of the kit cleaves atm.
Bloody Claws is a good idea in concept however lacks that oomph to go alongside it. Even simply changing it to a stat value by 2% Most likely either haste for faster spending or mastery empathize the pet with each stack works better - increasing the pets attack speed or a flat damage buff for the pet.
Quick shot is also just weird to be honest it doesn’t detract but what does it truly add to the spec?
Additionally, I believe that the cooldowns could do with some revisions. Relentless Primal Ferocity is a good example of how to enhance a cooldown. Bombardier meanwhile is thematically cool and is so close but needs some tweaks. Perhaps a better approach is to simply change your bomb and explosive shots, or for them to react together in some way - similarly to how SL Volaille bomb worked.
Spearhead on the other hand I don’t know it just feels super lacklustre; at the very least the GCD should be taken off now its tied to the pet. The duration doesn’t feel as if it lasts long enough to justify the GCD either in its current form. Combining Coordinated and Spearhead feel super awkward although better as Death Chakram is gone. It would be cooler if this could have some AOE integration by rewarding good play. Being able to spread the dot through the use of Mongoose Bite & Merciless Blows.
2 Likes
Survival feedback on new change to Flanking strike
ITS TERRIBLE!
I do not want to be forced into melee at times.
Many times, especially in pvp, i wnat to use RANGED abilites only, until its time to go in for melee dps.
I dont want to
HAVE TO LOSE KILL COMMAND every 3rd use and lose a good ranged dps filler just so I bounce in and then
LOSE en escape tool AKA Disengage jsut to get out to range again.
Poor design
If you are going to combine anything,
combine
kill command with arcane shot or serpents sting or concussive shot or explosive shot.
Better yet— morph it into Death Chakram every 3rd cast-- as now we have also LOST
a very good rdps skill with a flanking strike that does poor damage to boot.
and then combine
flanking strike with spearhead or coordinated assault
2 Likes
This week’s Survival changes are very disappointing. On last week’s build it was an interesting spec with lots of depth and room for skill expression; this week we’ve lost nearly all of that.
Flanking Strike: I think enough people have expressed their thoughts on this change here but I’ll mention it for completeness. Last week’s version of Flanking Strike was very fun and did a lot to help smooth over both our focus and tip of the spear economy. This new version accomplishes none of that. This is a solution in search of a problem, and it’s not a particularly effective solution to whatever the perceived problem is. Please revert it.
Mongoose Bite: Yes, there was rotational tension between Mongoose Fury and other parts of Survival’s new kit, but I think it was a healthy level of tension that allowed room for skill expression in setting up Mongoose Bite windows while managing everything else. Mongoose Bite windows are one of the most interesting parts of retail survival’s rotation, and it would really be a shame to lose that. There’s no reason for Mongoose Bite to exist separately from Raptor Strike if it’s just going to be a maintenance buff. Anything but this, please.
Coordinated Assault: I understand wanting to move away from a cooldown based around pet attacks, as it could be a bit awkward at times. However, turning CA into a flat damage amp is not the way to go. It doesn’t have to be pet attacks, but please give us something more to play around during CA. This is less offensive than the changes to Flanking Strike and Mongoose Bite, but it still just feels less interesting than it used to be.
Most of the other changes are fine, but these three things really break the spec for me. Last week’s version of survival was so good, why gut it like this?
11 Likes
On the flip side of this new update. I think most of these changes are really good! It really helps the feel to playing hunter and makes flanking strike just feel like its sitting there waiting for your focus to drop below a certain point.
I really like the changes here trying to make the kit feel more coherent from a gameplay perspective. Cheers to Blizzard for listening to feedback.
The changes to the class tree are very good, especially in light of the new M+ affix mechanics.
However, you have got a very muddled pathing problem in the centre of the BM tree.
Suggested Solution:
(1) Kindred Spirits is now a 1 point talent.
(2) Kindred Spirits is now where Pack Tactics was.
(3) Pack Tactics is now where Improved Kill Command was.
(4) Improved Kill Command is now where Kindred Spirits was.
(5) Improved Kill Command is now a 2-point talent (5%/10%).
(6) Wild Call is now where Hunter’s Prey was.
(7) Hunter’s Prey is now where Wild Call was.
This will significantly improve builds allowing for Wild Call through to Dire Beast without having to take the extraneous Kill Shot (Hunter’s Prey and therefore Venom’s Bite) talents.
It will also free up a point for everyone by moving the utterly useless Kindred Spirits talent that no-one ever takes to a spot in the tree where it is easily skipped without causing any pathing issues whatsoever.
Please consider making these simple changes.
Also, for the love of Elune, please fix the hero talents (Pack Assault for Pack Leader, and Shadow Lash for Dark Ranger) so they don’t explicitly buff Call of the Wild as Call of the Wild will not be in all builds.
2 Likes
Ok Blizzard. Where is chakram? Why is it gone?? It’s very useful when starting out a fight with a mob and I’m not happy that you’ve removed the chakram from the hunter. I don’t understand why you should remove that when it’s just fine. Maybe I’m the only one here who like using chakram on my hunter but still, I’m not happy that you’ve removed it. I would be happy if you put that back.
4 Likes
Glad to see Death Chakram go.
7 Likes
Chakrams going is fine. It contributed too much to chaining burst CDs back to back when you just want to start doing damage. Moving the damage to your spec’s key CDs makes much more sense.
Only change I’d like to see on Surv’s side is Spearhead inheriting the focus generation Chakrams had.
Also move some chakram abilities into Sentinel. Cause Sentinels should be throwing chakrams, not owls.
8 Likes
Territorial Instincts as it was previously worded was a dead talent for two specs and now it’s a dead talent for all three. If you’re running MM with a pet then it’s useless, and if you’re using Lone Wolf then you’re probably not gonna run Intimidation in the first place.
The only way to make it work without feeling terrible on Lone Wolf MM is to give us an instant dismiss ability.
4 Likes
What exactly do button bloat mean? I don’t feel it that way, maybe it’s just me that I don’t feel like hunters have too much buttons.
6 Likes
My thoughts on the Survival changes;
I’m not as negative on the Flanking Strike change, as I thought all this time it should have been a Kill Command replacement, though it really needs to work with Kill Command proc talents (Quick Shot, Sic 'em) and instead of a dash it should use the crossbow to do a synchronised ranged attack instead, making your pet dash to the target like the new Spearhead. Losing your primary ranged ability if you ever have to leave melee because it would send you back in is a horror.
EDIT; after playing with it a bit the old one is still much better than this, though I don’t think this is without salvation. Reverting Flanking Strike to it’s own button would be better, and if focus/economy is the issue; make it cost no focus instead so it’s a neutral tip of the spear proc.
I believe this Mongoose Bite suits the tree more but it still feels like missed opportunity to double down on a mongoose bite heavy build and instead almost completely loses the opportunity. Raptor Strike should probably be baseline for survival so when you actually pick it as a hunter you’re not ranged until level 13 for no reason(incapable of casting your free Kill Shot talent because it requires a 2h weapon).
Bloody Claws I’m not sure if these talent changes make this better or worse (6% all the time vs 2-10% sometimes), but it would be more interesting if it expanded on the Mongoose Fury buff in some other way instead to bring back life into this button (haste per stack to give it more feel, or scales dot damage/pet damage).
Spearhead off the gcd would feel really good.
Coordinated Assault is a step in the right direction In my opinion, but the tip of the spear amp from Relentless Primal Ferocity should be the style this cooldown buffs your damage, flat 20% amp is very uninspired. Maybe take the original uncapped tip of the spear scale and apply it here.
Death Chakram, Personally relieved to see this gone for survival with the implimentation of the Spearhead rework.
Arcane/Serpent Sting; Once again I request spammable pull button that is not rotational.
Pack Leader Would love some information about what the plans are for this.
I would have loved to see Dual Wield still too, but some of these changes in my opinion are still working in favour of the tree, it is still quick slick to play, I am personally extremely partial toward the new Sic 'em. I feel the new flanking strike is also rotationally quite nice for weaving even if it is currently not generating focus.
4 Likes
the new FS is rotationally not different than KC though? it’s just a blue kill command that does more damage in exchange for not working with half your talents + an entire hero talent tree
KC already does this 
so we gave up an exciting and satisfying spender (and controllable) ability that had its own niche in the rotation for a passive that makes every 4th kill command not work with half of your talents on top of potentially killing you 
6 Likes
It’s a nebulous buzz-term that people keep haphazardly throwing around. Hunter wasn’t “bloated.”
4 Likes
Some survival feedback based on the latest build:
Let’s start with some overwhelmingly negative critical feedback, because it’s the most important to be seen.
Flanking Strike changes:
The move from an active button to a passive one, and an clunky gap closer on one of our most frequently pressed buttons, at that, is horrendous. Don’t misconstrue this as if “the gap closer” part is the main issue, it’s the fact that it went from a focus spender for AoE to a nearly non-functional KC passive generator replacement talent with nothing else going for it. Last week’s build was perfect for this iteration of the ability.
My main problem with it is that it’s passive now. Not that it’s a buggy mess that doesn’t properly inherit any KC modifiers. Not that it’s a Skyreach with extra steps that’ll be getting us occasionally killed for trying to do our rotation normally. Not that it’s a change no one asked for. Not that it’s a generator when we needed more spenders.
The issue is entirely that this is a change from active button that felt great to press to a poor man’s KC. All other issues stem from this. We went entirely backwards.
Please revert Flanking Strike to it’s previous build state prior to the current one. If you take anything from the feedback this week, please do this.
Now, onto some other stuff regarding Survival.
The loss of Death Chakrams, while sad, is ultimately not really an issue. I find it odd that a damage amp was considered bloat while we still have stuff in our toolkit like Hunter’s Mark, world’s most unsatisfying raid buff, but whatever. I’ll miss the funny discus ability, but I’ll probably miss the damage amp effect even more. I’m personally not a fan of it’s removal if I were asked to decide, one way or another. I would gladly welcome it back, it wasn’t really a button bloat issue to me.
The Sic 'Em change is a welcome one. I’ve come to terms with Survival never getting Flayed Shot back, and this is likely the closest I’ll ever get to seeing it again short of just going back to Shadowlands Zones. Pretty good here.
Changes to CA are regrettable, but necessary. It wasn’t going to work as a whacky poor man’s flavor ability if it wanted to be an actual cooldown. No complaints further.
Wildfire Infusion caught… Another nerf? Felt pretty good at 1s, it’s hardly going to be noticeable at 0.5s. Would’ve rather seen Lunge get a nerf over this, honestly.
Mongoose Fury caught a net sort of(?) nerf, since while it appears to have been reduced to 3 stacks to cut out start time, the damage amp wasn’t adjusted with it. Unless that was the intent to sideline our main spender for whatever reason. Might just be an oversight? I don’t hate it, but it doesn’t exactly help with the button just being weak. Needs it’s AP scaling buffed, as others suggested.
Anything else not mentioned is pretty good.
Except.
I’m not sure what visual changes you guys were cooking for Spearhead, but they clearly didn’t make it to the new build.
Revert Flanking Strike.
8 Likes
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I still think Kindred Spirits should be baseline. It’s especially egregious as a 2-pointer. I’m sure there are people who would prefer to have the extra 20 Focus, regardless of the DPS benefit, but for us optimizers, the only way we’re taking that is if it proves a better route overall to BW, not because we actually want it. Which is a bit of a pity, because I do like the extra Focus – BM sometimes have Focus flood issues – but it’s just never been a strong talent, AFAIK.
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I think it’s great that you’re having Intim work for Lone Wolf MM. Primal Rage next?
1 Like