FEEDBACK - FERAL - Why is Rake stronger than Rip? ran some numbers

Classes Druid
1

Today i tested on my 120 druid with no gear at all. no weapon, no neck , no rings, no trinkets, no armor, nothing, the damage on a dummy of rake and rip.

Here is what i found.

—Rake - 35 Energy combo point builder
Initial dmg 359
306 dmg every 3 secs for 15 secs = 1530 dmg
each second = 102 dmg
re apply after 15secs for 359 more dmg and redot
359(2) + 1530(2)
3060 dmg over 30 secs from the damage over time effect and 718 dmg from the initial damage x2
total of 3778 dmg

—RIP - 20 Energy combo spender, up to 5 for full dmg

258 dmg every 2 secs for 24secs = 3096 dmg
no initial damage
each second = 129 dmg
3870 dmg over 30 secs
(you will need to re-apply rip on second 24-25 for 5combo points and 20 energy
to get the math right calculating both abilities damage over 30 seconds)

Difference between
RIP (20 Energy combo spender, up to 5 for full dmg)
Rake (35 Energy combo point builder)

=RIP 3870 dmg - Rake 3778 dmg = 92 dmg

Since Rip is a combo finisher i think it should be stronger imo.
Rip is like a 2nd rake that you get to put on a target after hitting 3-5 abilities,
aka getting 5 combo points.

what you guys think?

would like this to get some attention. any dev or anyone who can help. my point is that rip doesnt feel that rewarding for how much build up it has. maybe (BIG MAYBE) take damage off of rake and implement it into rip? i want rip to feel like a hard (not hard as in op hard) hitting ability, feel the pay off of building 5 combo points!!

compare rake and rip to assa’s rogue garrote and rapture. garrote serves as your rake, you can can have 100% up time, has special effect while stealth. rapture is rip, 5 combo points, 24 secs duration dot. they both tick faster than rake and rip respectively. garrote deals less damage than rapture. so as an assa rogue you can have your garrote 100% on your target but the moment you press rapture YOU KNOW he is going to bleed.

i dont know, thats just my opinion on how i feel about rip compared to rake in terms of damage, pay off, reward.

another idea could be to make rip do a initial dmg (?) so if you add the initial dmg + the dot, it will end up doing more damage than rake (?). this may not be the solution cuz of sabertooth talent since you will only be riping once per target tho…

anyway, hope this feedback gets addressed and something gets done about it :D.

open to any suggestion / discussion.

3 Likes
2

I believe its that way as rip is the only ability left in the game you can snapshot dmg with. Buffing it would be problematic as its already very powerful if used correctly

3

They are both underwhelming. Ferocious Bite is double and sometimes triple Rip’s damage on some of my fights. Rake, even though it does a bit more damage than Rip, is barely beating Lethal Strikes on my meters.

3 Likes
4

i thought about that. but, every damage buff you can use will also increase rake initial damage and damage over time effect. Tiger’s fury increase the damage off all abilities and their full duration so both rake and rip are affected here. same happen with savage roar.

in the other hand… both berserk and incarnation increase shred and RAKE initial damage and dot (rake while stealth deals +60% dmg). activating.

the only thing that can buff rip without buffing rake is the talent Soul of the Forest which increase finishing move damage by 5%.

recap
Tiger’s fury affect both rake and rip by 15%
savage roar affect both rake and rip by 15%
berserk makes rake act like if you were stealth increasing its damage by 60%
soul of the forest increase finishing move damage (rip) by 5%

taking all buffs into consideration, rake will double rip’s damage if you get every buff up.

5

Yes but rips damage can snapshot where as rakes cannot. So while yes the abilities plus trinkets and procs will increase rakes damage for its duration one those buffs fall of so will the damage. Rip on the other hand keeps that dmg long after the buffs fall off amd if refreshed still keeps those buffs you can effectively get multiple buffs of tigers fury and savage roar on a single rip

6

i agree.
very underwhelming tbh… they need to change the numbers on those abilities since those are part of our core rotation…

can we get a blizz dev here pls :smiley:

1 Like
7

Rake can also be snapshot

3 Likes
8

Come shadowlands, only rip benefits from BT.

1 Like
9

Huh good to know

10

uhmmm i see… the thing is, even with snapshoting, if you look at dps metters, rake will always be on top of rip.

my point is that a combo builder should not do more dmg in the long run than the finisher if that make sense…

2 Likes
11

Were stealth buffs used in this experiment? Whether it be Prowl, Shadowmeld, or Berserk?

Actually with the buffs to stealthed Shred I wonder if Shadowmeld will be better used on Shred now?

12

i didn’t actually tested it with those abilities. but i had them in mind when i was doing numbers. i checked what buffs what and so on.

like i say here:
Tiger’s fury affect both rake and rip by 15%
savage roar affect both rake and rip by 15%
berserk makes rake act like if you were -stealth- increasing its damage by 60%
soul of the forest increase finishing move damage (rip) by 5%
Bloodtalons increase bite and RIP by 30%
i forgot to mention about the new Bloodtalons talent which increase next two Rip and Bite by 30%. but if you do the math and add every modifier to the equation, rake will be like 25% more damage than rip.
Rake + buffs = 90% more damage
15% + tiger Fury
15% + savage roar
60% + stealth buff from berserk

Rip + buffs = 65% more damage
15% + tigers fury
15% + savage roar
5% + soul of the forest
30% + bloodtalons

the reason why i didn’t actually pressed the buff skills to see the numbers is cuz you can just do the math based on what the spell says it does if that make sense.
i took every buff into consideration and stealth (prowl, shadowmeld, berserk) too.

tested with no items on whatsoever so trinkets, cloak, armor, rings, neck, weapon didn’t have a play here.

1 Like
13

Well I don’t think you can just compare the buffs straight like that. To say that stealth buff is 60% while BT is 30% doesn’t communicate all the information. Not every Rake will be stealthed but every Rip should be BT’d. So even though it’s a numerically smaller buff, it will be active more often.

1 Like
14

i totally get what you mean there.

the thing is that those buffs like savage roar and tigers fury are 30secs CD so you will be able to have a buffed rake almost always.

also i simulated both spells as if their buffed duration was the same (30secs). i know will never be like that. but in a long fight you can extract 30secs segments of those abilities buffed and establish the relation between them.

both on retail and in SL beta / ptr. using a damage metter, doing your rotation for 2minutes, rake always ends up on top of Rip in both damage and dps. (no gear whatsoever while testing)

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15

It probably doesn’t change anything but because I’m curious: our mastery effects both bleeds and finishing moves. Does this double dip for Rip (since it is both a finishing move and a bleed, and similar to how SL Balance allows Astral Damage to double dip during Incarnation) or does it effect both Rip and Rake the exact same?

16

i dont think so cuz i saw no difference in numbers… :confused: rake was always out performing rip

17

Don’t forget that while DPS per ability is important, DPE (dmg per energy) is also incredibly important; more so even. While rake may be higher damage throughout a fight, it constantly needs reapplied. Rip is essentially on there for free, in entirety.

Worth noting.

18

it is actually a valid point!

If you dont have sabertooth talent, rip has to be reapplied to!!

im not calling rake op, or rip is trash or anything. they perform well cough
cough… i just want rip to feel more rewarding as an ability for the build up, thats all. :smiley:

1 Like
19

True, sabertooth gives it the “entirety” point I mentioned however rake is still 35 energy compared to rip’s 20. So the fact that they’re about even in the aforementioned math just shows that rip is nearly twice as efficient. I understand you’d like it to feel absurd and awesome but in real world, it’s just another bleed that has a long duration. I think it does it’s job.

Now, for what it’s worth, I love bleed centric specs. I really wish feral was bleed king instead of arms like they were in MoP. Problem with feral being so bleed centric is that on short encounters and such, their damage lacks due to ramp up. I mean PW helps that and such now but it’d certainly be less bursty. As far as pvp is concerned though, I love bleeds.

3 Likes