Feedback: Farseer Shaman

If Farseer forces us into a fire build, I’m going to assume that Stormbringer forces us into a lightning build. Silver lining being that at least two playstyle choices present themselves, but it still feels bad because ideally it’d be better if you could just pick whichever hero tree suits your playstyle without too much compromise on throughput.

Even throughput alone is not enough. Survivability and utility is also equally important and we don’t really get much of that.

Also, can we make maelstrom spenders actually powerful again? I wish there were a means of just making Elemental Blast instant cast. Or like give us two charges of Spirit Walker’s Grace or just straight up let us cast Lightning Bolt while moving like we were able to at some point.

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One thing I really don’t like about this hero tree is that it hurts button bloat.

This tree basically forces you to take primordial wave and unleash life. It also incentivizes you to take spiritwalkers grace and natures swiftness.

I know the class tree is going to be changed most likely in TWW, but even so, forcing players to take optional talents is bad design and button bloat is a common concern at the moment. This seems to be the wrong direction for design.

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Any hero tree for any class that requires a talent choice should be on a spell that is baseline or on a competitive choice node with something that doesn’t require it.

That’s how the monk trees are. You don’t have to have any talents for the trees to work. They do have a few hero talents that interact with the base talent trees, but they’re choice nodes with something else that doesn’t require said talent.

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This just made me wonder how hero talents will work with tier sets, because if they are not super general-use, it will be really weird having tier sets force the use of, not only talents, but also hero trees because “well the tier buffed lava burst and so we have to use the Farseer spec this tier”.

That was always going to be the case though. It’s an RPG. There’s always going to be a mathematically correct build based on talents and available gear.

At the end of the day, hero talents are still just talents. If a tier set favors a Meatball build, of course we are going to pick Farseer. That’s just the way tier sets are. If tier sets didn’t “force” us into a build, we would likely play the same build every single tier. That’s great if you really enjoy the current playstyle, but that can also get stale after a few months.

I disagree. There are acceptable levels to sacrificing performance for playstyle. For example, I prefer to play thunder builds. If thunder was only 5% less damage than fire, I would play it. If it was 25% less, I couldn’t do it. And when you add in tier sets that reinforce specific builds, you get closer to that large range of performance where people literally can’t play the build they want.

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Exactly this. When the margin is too high you no longer have a choice if you want to meaningfully progress in medium/high level content while also not having a horrible time trying to find group willing to accept you.

Also, I don’t like that the hero tree is named “Farseer” given that we already get that title from the class campaign… feels redundant.

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Exactly, If the choice is made for you then there really isn’t a choice. You play the spec/talents that Blizz wants you to play because they don’t want to put in effort to make it balanced for each spec/playstyle.

Reminds me of when people swore that the new Dragonflight class/spec trees were going to enable a bunch of choice compared to the previous version when in reality it did none of it. Sure there may be some very slight variation between trees but it really ends up being the same.

To me, hero talents were supposed to give more choice regardless of whether or not you decide to focus on the “left, center, or right” side of a tree. By making the Farseer hero talents revolve around Primordial Wave you pretty much force players to focus on the left side of the Elemental talent tree.

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I fully expect the next year of armor sets to be based on hero spec rather then normal spec.

As in, Farseer, Totemic, and Stormbringer set bonuses rather than the normal resto/elemental/enhancement ones.

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I mean this describes the exact issue I have with a lot of forced builds that exist now.

An actually-good example of choice (well closer to good) is single target Ele Blast versus using Earth Shock and being able to put one extra point in Elemental Equilibrium. It’s roughly an 8% difference (favoring Ele Blast). Of course you have a lot more mobility with Earth Shock. It’s a trade off worth making sometimes, especially in an encounter that forces you to move a lot (at some point of movement required, Earth Shock would obviously win).

In actual practice assuming some movement is required, we’ll call it a 4-6% dps increase for something that is a bit more difficult to put into fruition in that actual play (depending on the encounter obviously).

Of course - this is largely made invalid because our spenders are tuned so low that they’re not worth casting most of the time…so it may just be a bit moot anyway, until we can get looked at.

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That is terrifiying for balancing purposes…

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Hot damn that is a such a bad idea that I can see it happening.

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Farseer Feedback for Elemental Shaman

Theme

  • Honestly the theme is pretty good. Ancestors are a big part of Shamans’ culture and how they interact with the world, seeking the wisdom of the old ones.
  • It’s not as good as some other hero talents theme around, and I kind of wish this was a primalist tree or something, but it’s good nonetheless.

Row By Row Analysis

Keystone : Call of the Ancestors

  • Call of the Ancestors is rather bland. It’s mostly a passive pet spawn. It brings a lot of questions about how the spells used by the ancestors will interact with our own kit, and don’t bring many answers.
    • What will the ancestors cast exactly? “Similar spell” isn’t very accurate.
    • If/When they cast Lava Burst, does our counter for Deeply Rooted Elements increase?
    • When they cast Elemental Blast, do we get the 6% bonus secondary or not?
    • If/When they cast Earthquake, can their Earthquake knockdown enemies?
    • Can their spell overload? If they can, is their overload chance affected by our Mastery?
  • In any case, this keystone mostly doesn’t affect gameplay, which can be both good and bad.
  • Ancestors being tied to Primordial Wave which is a talent in our capstone section also feels kinda bad. This kind of kills any build diversity as Deeply Rooted Element and Primordial Surge combine so darn well with each other, pretty much locking 5 capstone section talents.

Row 1 : Latent Wisdom / Ancient Fellowship

  • This choice node boils down to RNG vs Consistency.
  • With the possibility to double down on gamble ancestor spawn later in the tree, this choice node isn’t really one. You either want to spawn a hell lot of Ancestors of make them stronger but fewer (quality over quantity/quantity over quality).
  • In ST, this could be generalized to “stronger Burst during our PW window” or more consistent damage throughout the fight/dungeon.
  • In AoE, I don’t think this is a choice. With Rolling Magma, Primordial Wave will have a shorter CD and you will get a lot more value from trying to high roll with Ancient Fellowship. But I might be wrong.
  • It might just be a simming angle. If Latent Wisdom just consistently outdamage the RNG of Ancient Fellowship, why bother. This also makes this node very bad in that case.

Row 1 : Heed My call / Ancient Communication

  • Honestly this is pretty much the same as the choice node just before. You are choosing between quality and quantity, except quantity libely to be way better.
  • Side note, but Ancient Communication begs the question if the designers are happy with our current Gameplay.
    • Ancient Communication basically further increases the priority of Lava Burst.
    • Currently, in Dragonflight season 3, we’re already skipping spenders when Deeply Rooted Elements procs.
    • This is due largely due to our tier set but also to the amount of Lava Surge Generators that are available to us. We spend ~56% of our time pressing Lava Burst and 60% of our damage breakdown is Lava burst. Is that what they want? Is that what we want?
    • Lava burst doesn’t really feel good to press anymore because we’re drowning in procs that makes it feel like a filler almost. I know this is a whole other topic but it felt relevant, I won’t further elaborate on this. You can check the link at the end of this comment if you want more of my opinion on the matter.
  • But yeah, looping back to this choice node, I fail to see how Heed my call will ever be good. An ancestor lasting 2 more second will make it cast one more time, maybe two? Is that good enough on average?. If you say an ancestor casts every 1.5s, they can cast 4 spells before going away. Heed my call adds a fifth, sometimes a sixth.
  • In comparison, Ancient communication adds 4 casts any times it procs, but also adds another chance to proc Ancient Fellowship when it’s selected, introducing a feedback loop between the two talents.
  • With our current talent tree that allows us to cast so many Lava burst, I don’t think picking something else than Ancient Fellowship + Ancient Communication is an option, but maybe I need to try it out and get a feeling for it.

Row 1: Elemental Reverb

  • So yeaahhhh. More Lava Burst accessibility. This might look innocent to a lot of people but getting a 3rd charge of Lava Burst is kind of a big deal. Currently, if you play both Primordial Surge and Windspeaker’s Lava Resurgence, you frequently “munch” Lava Surge procs, meaning you get a Lava Surge when you were already at max charges of Lava Burst or already had a Lava Surge active.
  • Having a third charge give us more Leeway to alternate Lava Burst with other spells, being more efficient at using Master of the Elements and Surge of Power without capping Lava Burst charges and spending our resources.
  • Nonetheless, this further amplifies the gameplay issue I was talking about earlier, and I’m not sure what to think of it without really testing it in alpha or beta. We shall see. I hope we don’t become even more of a Lava Burst turret than we already are.

Row 2: Offering from Beyond

  • This kind of makes me want to cry, not gonna lie.
  • Currently, Fire Elemental is 1.2% of our DPS, going up to maybe 2% if you include the Flame Shock tick rate increase. It also has a 2min30 CD for some reason. Fire Elemental is thrash. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the worse offensive CD of the game at the moment. The only reason Fire Elemental feels good is the Flame Shock Duration increase that makes us forget our debuff management for a moment. That’s it.
  • This node is bad because Fire Elemental is terrible. If Fire elemental is changed, it can be okay.
  • Also I would be very surprised if you played Storm Elemental with this tree. But what do I know.

Row 2: Primordial Capacity

  • If the loop of lava burst isn’t altered, we might not be spending soon. So more maelstrom is… there I guess?
  • It does help Stormkeeper cleave builds that cannot get Swelling Maelstrom in our class tree.

Row 2: Spiritwalker’s Momentum

  • Spiritwalker’s Grace is 15s, which roughly estimates from 8 to 10 casts. It should be decently easy to maximize this each time, making Spiritwalker’s Grace 19s. Neat.

Row 3: Nature Harmony / Earthen Communion

  • If Offering from Beyond made me want to cry, this just makes me laugh uncontrollably. This is so bad that it’s hilarious.
  • Shaman is currently one of the weakest class defensively. Some people try to argue that we’re fine, that we don’t die in Warcraftlogs stats, etc. This season, we’re stacking versatility once we reach the mastery cap. That’s the reason we’re kind of passively tanky, and that’s a late season/expansion perk. If nothing changes, we’ll be in a very precarious situation next raid in TWW.
  • During Raid progression, on a boss like Echo of Neltharion Mythic, you need a defensive every 45s. Problem is, Astral Shift is 1min30. So what can we do? Ask for externals. That’s all we can do. And it feels terrible to be one of the few classes that can’t survive on their own.
  • So yeah, seeing a defensive node this bad makes me laugh. Death stat on warcraft logs isn’t a good reason to say that shaman is tanky and this feels like a slap in the face, with double back.

Row 3: Maelstrom Supremacy

  • This is clearly a tuning node and there’s nothing much to say about it. Passive damage goes brr.

Row 3: Final Calling

  • When an Ancestor expires, they cast Elemental Blast on a nearby enemy.
  • This brings me back to an earlier question : Do we get the stat buff from Elemental Blast casted by ancestors?
  • Also this node increases the value of having a lot of ancestors because two Elemental Blasts will do more damage than one Elemental Blast buffed by 20% (from Latent Wisdom). This feels like a sneaky buff to the RNG factor of Ancestors. Good Ancestor procs imply more Ancestors which implies more Elemental Blasts.

Capstone: Ancestral Swiftness

  • Let me make a quick comparison:
    • Master of the Element is a buff we get after using Lava Burst (which we cast more than once every two spells on average) that increases the Damage or Healing of your next Nature, Physical or Frost Spell by 20%. We currently have ~73% uptime on it and ~70% benefit uptime on it (7/10 Master of the Elements are used to buff something).
    • Ancestral Swiftness is a 45s CD that buffs one of our spell by 10%, makes it instant and calls on ancestor.
  • Yeah… Let’s hope that Ancestors are good enough to bring some value to this sorry excuse of a capstone.

Conclusion

To me, the goal is more about pointing out problems that proposing solutions. I just hope that the problems stand out significantly enough to be addressed.

This tree is probably a 2/5. Theme’s good, not great, Utility’s neat, Gameplay is passive and/or RNG only when it’s not outright bad, the Defensive node is hilariously bad and the capstone feels like an afterthought. It’s not TERRIBLE but it feels really bad for sure. I just hope that someone realize that 2/5 is not good enough to be shipped and it won’t forgotten as an “okayish enough” hero talent tree.

I probably won’t be reading the thread much but you can find me in Earthshrine, the Shaman Discord, if you want to discuss my point of view or just to chat in general.

If you want more of my opinion, you can check my open letter on the Storm, Earth and Lava blog (I can’t link it sadly) where I discuss the state of elemental in Dragonflight. The letter is a bit old as it was written at the end of Season 2 but most of it is still relevant (in my opinion of course).

Good day ele-rybody,
Elivrio

13 Likes

Yesss and or come up with a new ability that aligns with the aesthetic principles of the class spec identity. Be creative.

Just echoing what others have mentioned because I want devs to really see how important it is:

  • Maelstrom spenders REALLY need to matter. In fact, I was REALLY hoping that Farseer would bring more interaction/meaning to Maelstrom (maybe Stormbringer will do that)
  • Lava Burst used to be a spell that felt impactful, hit hard, and you looked forward to Lava Surge procs. Now its literally the filler, spender, cleave, its everything and thats simply just bad design.

You could literally swap out summoning ancestors with primordial wave for something else like making it so that whenever you spend X amount of maelstrom you summon an ancestor, that way we aren’t locked into primordial wave.

Like I know I’m not a dev, I know I’m not a game designer, but the older I get the more I realize people are just human beings and they don’t think of things or make errors, whatever we all have flaws. But like for real though, please if you’re a dev just listen to the community.

Lastly, I don’t get why Shaman or any class/spec can’t receive a rework. As we’ve seen, it can happen at any time. They’ve added new specs to entire classes (Evoker/Druid), completely reworked how some specs play (Survival/Demonology). I don’t see why Shaman isn’t a candidate to receive any of that at any time.

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I just want to add to the feedback by stating that I don’t feel the defensive options presented are powerful enough to compete with other ranged classes.

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For years, a dedicated cohort of Elemental and Restoration Shaman players within the World of Warcraft community has consistently offered a wealth of feedback and innovative ideas to the development teams. Our passionate contributions, detailed in over 200 insightful posts responding to your feedback requests alone, sadly seem to echo into a void, met with a disheartening silence that has persisted for years. The lack of response is a clear message in itself, underscoring a profound communication gap.

The silence leaves us questioning the rationale behind class design decisions, such as the intended roles of different elemental spells and the overarching strategy for Shamans. Despite the subtle hints in tier sets, the community is left to speculate in the absence of direct dialogue. This uncertainty extends to broader issues, such as why Shamans remain the only class without a raid buff, and why our class seems to be sidelined in the developmental narrative that sees other classes evolve seasonally.

From an outsider’s perspective, the internal management and development focus appear unevenly distributed across classes. Shaman updates often feel like afterthoughts, rehashed ideas, or uninspired mechanics that lack the innovation and excitement seen in other classes. This inconsistency suggests a lack of clear leadership and vision for Shamans, contributing to a cycle of underdevelopment and dwindling player engagement.

The argument that Shaman classes receive less attention due to their smaller player base is a self-defeating prophecy. It’s a problem that stems from inadequate development effort, leading to a less appealing class experience and further diminishing the community. This vicious cycle is a challenge of Blizzard’s own making, one that could be addressed with a renewed focus on class development and community engagement.

As a player deeply invested in the Shaman class, I’m open to changes or even a complete overhaul if it would lead to a more engaging and dynamic class experience. However, discovering these changes through patch notes rather than through open dialogue further amplifies the feeling of disconnect.

The portrayal of Shamans in recent expansions, particularly in “Dragonflight,” where they played pivotal roles yet received minimal class development, exemplifies a missed opportunity for deeper narrative integration and class enhancement.

In conclusion, our plea is simple: engage with us. The current state of affairs, where passionate players feel like they’re screaming into the void, is profoundly demotivating. While the thematic aspects of the Shaman class are intriguing, the overall class experience feels neglected. Transparent communication and genuine engagement from Blizzard would go a long way in reinvigorating the Shaman community and ensuring that our class continues to thrive within the rich tapestry of World of Warcraft.

30 Likes

Excellent post and it is reinforced by the less frequent implementation of spell animations and forms when compared to other classes.

  • Ascendance using the same model since Cata launch.
  • Ghost wolf never given additional forms for each new shaman race added over the years.
  • New lightning, fire, and earth animations added to NPCs, Evokers, etc but shaman spells not updated.
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using blue tracker, I saw that there have been 6 total posts to the shaman forums since 2020. all but 1 of them were patch notes, the 1 other was for a bug fix. was unable to add the link to my first post.

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