Feedback: Deathbringer Death Knight

This feedback will focus mostly on “how do these talents feel and how cool do they seem”, “how the talents will play and impact rotation/gameplay”, and “how these new talents would affect existing talents”. The perspective is from a Blood Death Knight who primarily does Mythic+ Tank Theorycrafting for the specialization as well as higher-end Mythic+.

Reaper’s Mark Debuff Windows, Explosions, and Exterminate

So, the core mechanic of this hero class appears to be Reaper’s Mark, a (assumed to be strong) single target attack that applies a debuff of the same name as well as unleashing a Wave of Souls that does AoE Shadowfrost damage with a Shadowfrost damage vulnerability effect. The Reaper’s Mark debuff does incentivise the use of Frost/Shadow damage to generate stacks (especially Shadowfrost damage that has superior stack generation potential via Bind in Darkness), which explode for a set amount of single target damage per stack at the end of the Reaper’s Mark debuff, which does more damage (and potentially a Soul Reaper) when the target is at low health due to Grim Reaper while also doing relatively lighter AoE damage via Shuddering Soul. Depending on final numbers, the debuff windows have the potential to increase the relative priority of superior stack-generating abilities over less efficient stack generators due to the potential damage benefits. Via Exterminate, these explosions also provide super-charged Marrowrends that cost no runes (likely generating no RP because of that), that provide more damage for ST/AoE, potentially apply Blood Plague, and potentially reapply Reaper’s Mark. Much of the tree is built around making the Reaper’s Mark and the Exterminate abilities feel impactful in what appears to be a mostly damage-oriented way. Blood DK Mitigation and EHP is not majorly impacted by the main Reaper’s Mark gameplay loop; this is mostly limited to Exterminate lowering rune requirements for Bone Shield maintenance (to counterbalance Reaper’s Mark having a rune cost itself without the superior Runic Power generation of Heart Strike) and Shuddering Soul providing some amount of physical damage reduction. At first glance, the mechanics seem like they would make the standard Blood DK rotation more interesting.

There are also conditions in place to try and give Reaper’s Mark more value on targets who die quickly or are about to imminently die; with the debuff bouncing targets in multiple target situations or having the debuff immediately explode at 35% unit health on a 3 minute cooldown. As long as this still allows us to generate stacks for the full Reaper’s Mark duration after the enemy dips below 35% (with existing stacks exploding), there isn’t any real issue with that.

Functional Flavor Talents (Shadowfrost Expansion and Execution Theme)

While not providing any major gameplay implications, giving Blood Plague ticks a Shadowfrost proc effect with Blood Fever is a nice touch and, like all Shadowfrost damage, has synergy with the Reaper’s Mark debuff. Wither Away plays into this by making Blood Plague tick faster, so it also has an indirect effect of increasing stack generation potential through faster Blood Plague ticks. For similar reasons, Blood Boil providing Shadowfrost damage through Bind in Darkness as well as Death Strike providing Shadowfrost damage through Dark Talons are cool features.

Choice Node #1: Death’s Bargain vs. Rune Carved Plates

Death Pact has a lot of “feel bad” qualities, in general, when it comes to its use, especially for blood. It’s basically a Death Strike without a Blood Shield, on a long cooldown, and with an anti-heal shield (that is the same size regardless of how much actual healing is done by the Death Pact, which also has PvP dampening implications). So, even though Blood would often have healing to spare to heal off an anti-heal shield, the net upside of Death Pact is often limiting and there are many situations where it can be a net negative to use. Even in a best-case scenario, a net 20% health heal every 2 minutes is not particularly impactful. There’s potential to do some sort of satisfying kiss/curse ability with an anti-heal, especially for death knight that has plenty of self-healing potential on-hand, but I don’t think the current iteration of Death Pact has an upside that makes it feel satisfying; I don’t think this is just a numbers issue, something conceptually probably needs to change with it if it is ever going to see the light of day or feel satisfying to press.

The above Death Pact discussion is relevant because Death’s Bargain heavily utilizes Death Pact. to be fair, this type of effect is a lot more economical as a trigger-based healing effect, but the overall impact of this for Blood is going to be small (in addition to %-health triggers practically proccing on cooldown for the specialization) and the cooldown reduction on Death Pact, itself, is not going to be utilized with the current state of the talent trees nor would it be worth much even if Death Pact was baseline.

Which brings us to what people will pretty much always be using, Rune Carved Plates. An up to 10% damage reduction talent that can permanently be maintained is very strong for Blood (and likely Frost as well). That being said, with only a 5 second duration, there is some potential that it will force some amount of purposeful rune staggering to maintain this buff (you can’t go 4 globals without using a rune-spending ability), which could potentially be awkward since Blood often needs to Death Strike sporadically in response to incoming damage and 5 seconds is not a lot to work with. This potential issue will be understood more by us later as we move into alpha and take a closer look at the exact rotational implications, but a longer duration would reduce the chance of this having weird rotational implications if that ends up being an issue.

Choice Node #2: Swift End vs. Painful Death

Swift End obviously doubles Reaper’s Mark/Exterminate debuffs/procs potential, where Painful Death has a lower potential for Reaper’s Mark/Exterminate debuffs/procs, but a higher stack cap and less need to actually spend cast time on Reaper’s Mark it self relative to Exterminate procs. Again, it is hard to say for sure, but I’m not sure if there is enough differentiation going on here, so one talent (let’s say Swift End) may end up being superior to the other in all circumstances. Stronger 1 minute marks (with more chain proc potential) vs. 30 second marks just seems like a tradeoff that is hard to not make one-sided; a different approach may be warranted.

Choice Node #3: Dark Talons vs. Wither Away

Unlike the other choice nodes so far, this one seems to have a clear single target vs. multi target performance differentiation, where both could be situationally competitive. I would only comment that Dark Talons appears to have a goofy mechanism for raising maximum Icy Talons stacks (where it could just simply “raise max stacks by 2” without anyone batting an eye), while Wither Away is pretty straight forward.

Choice Node #4: Death’s Messenger vs. Expelling Shield

Death’s Messenger provides a mix of small single target damage (Raise Dead) and survivability (Lichborne, when talented) benefits, which just seems superior to a small and clunky casting speed slow debuff on magic damage taken during Anti-Magic Shell from Expelling Shield. In PvE, this effect would only get value against chain-casting enemies that are almost exclusively casting on tanks and a lot of effort is often put into disrupting their casts, anyway, so the value gain is extremely limited regardless of the number put on the cast speed slow. With aggressive enough tuning, something like the auto-application of a (reasonably large) cast speed slow debuff in an AoE on casting Anti-Magic Shell would maybe be appealing enough to consider, but the mechanics of applying such a debuff after something damages Anti-Magic Shell is going to be a hard sell regardless of numbers.

Deathbringer Rotation, Talent, and Build Considerations

Rotationally, there is some potential for Reaper’s Mark debuff windows to situationally incentivise Blood Boil casts (Shadowfrost with Blood Fever) over Heart Strike casts (Physical) with a large enough damage incentive from the extra Reaper’s Mark stacks, though this would need to overcome the lack of Runic Power generation and, subsequently, the impact that has on our ability to mitigate incoming damage. In any case, Blood Boil is cast frequently enough that Wither Away would not be incentivising more Blood Boil casts than usual, when taking both the shorter Blood Plague duration and Exterminate proc Blood Plague applications into consideration. And, without an elevated Reaper’s Mark priority on Blood Boil, the core Death Strike/Heart Strike/Blood Plague loop would be relatively unaffected by these hero talents, as a whole, unless Rune Carved Plates ends up requiring us to purposefully stagger our rune usage to maintain uptime.

Soul Reaper (as a 2 hit shadowfrost ability) and Abomination Limb/Bonestorm with Dark Talons (as multi-hit shadow damage abilities) would have enhanced stack generation potential relative to most other abilities (though Bonestorm has some fundamental issues which probably preclude its use); Abomination Limb/Bonestorm with Dark Talons, in particular, may get synced up with Reaper’s Mark debuff windows for their stack generation potential, if used.

Death and Decay already has a high priority, but the debuff windows would make it even more valuable as a multi-tick shadow damage ability.

Grim Reaper has the potential to make any change in rotation conditional on enemy health %, since enemy health can increase mark damage up to 30% damage.

Exterminate Marrowrends are assumed to have an obvious damage benefit to their casting, even if they do not immediately impact our Runic Power economy. Their existence means that we have less need to spend runes on Bone Shield management and increases Heart Strike potential (which would normally crowd out Blood Boil casts). Reaper’s Mark cast requirements are also to an extent where they are only cutting into potential Blood Boil cast time, which isn’t overly problematic.

IF Razorice damage instances generate Reaper’s Mark stacks, then that, in combination with a large increase in shadowFROST damage that is amplified by the Razorice debuff, could potentially give that runeforge more consideration on Blood (on single targets in particular, since Reaper’s Mark is very single target focused). More details and numbers are needed to say if Blood would ever actually consider using that.

Weird item effects with frost/shadow damage instances are something that this hero talent tree could take advantage of, should they generate stacks (for better or worse).

Dark Talons (if taken) increase the value of Icy Talons, while reducing the value of Bloodshot for obvious reasons.

Defensively, Death’s Messenger increases the value of Unholy Endurance.

Wave of Souls and Bind in Darkness provide bonuses that have some amount of scaling with Critical Strike, a stat that traditionally gives relatively high damage at the cost of having severely less defensive value than the other three secondary stats, which generally makes it an undesirable stat in any content that puts the tank under reasonable threat. Not enough information is available to know if these perks change decision-making with regard to secondary stats.

Overall

I think this hero class likely meets any class fantasy/thematic goals with Deathbringer, which seem to emphasize execution, shadowfrost, and a general “death” theme.

The main gameplay consideration is working with Reaper’s Mark for a powerful amount of mostly single target damage that is enabled via magic damage hits, along with empowered Marrowrends via Exterminate, for blended single target and AoE damage. An option exists to significantly amplify Blood Plague damage if a larger AoE contribution is desirable. This is in contrast to San’layn emphasizing the Heart Strike → Death Strike loop with a maintenance buff that enhances the damage of both of those abilities along with bonus rune regeneration, haste, and aggressive Vampiric Blood usage; which, from a damage profile perspective, is a lot more heavily focused on 1/2/5 targets than the profile being provided by Deathbringer which generally either deals in pure single target or uncapped AoE.

Defensive benefits are more centered around improving Effective Health than improving overall Death Strike effectiveness, mostly through Rune Carved Plates and, to a lesser extent, through the Shuddering Soul debuff. This is in contrast to San’layn’s defensive benefits being more mitigation-oriented (lower external healing requirements/having a higher degree of self-sustainability) via Haste and Rune regeneration improving Death Strike mitigation effectiveness.

Talent implications from the normal class/spec trees are pretty minimal at first glance, though part of that is due to the fact that Blood Death Knights don’t have too much wiggle room in their existing talent trees in the first place in combination with Deathbringer mechanics not putting emphasis on the more borderline talent tradeoffs that currently exist within the tree. In contrast, the Vampiric Blood talents for San’layn were more naturally competitive in the first place, so it was easier to tip the scales to lock them. While San’layn props up haste, a stat that is usually of above average value for Blood, Deathbringer provides some incentives for what is generally our worst stat, critical strike; neither hero talent tree is likely to have an overly large impact on overall stat considerations. More informed feedback will become available once alpha is available to iron out mechanics with testing.

I’m fairly happy with the general concept of both hero talent trees for blood, though there are potential pain points in both trees that could maybe use iteration (in Deathbringer’s case, some of those choice nodes have conceptually weak talents as well as Rune Carved Plates potentially creating some wonky rotational incentives given how short the buff duration is and the need for sporadic Death Striking).

5 Likes

WOW! I am blown away. This fixes all the problems with frost and blood! (Please give us our armor back in pvp. I am no longer asking.)

Looking over the Frost tree alongside this again and if there’s currently no intentions to pull power out from KM Obliterate and distribute it into the rest of the kit, specifically the RP spenders, then Grim Reaper should make Frost’s RP spenders do increased damage to targets below 35% instead of applying Soul Realer.

Frost has a huge issue with not caring about resources, particularly RP, and Dark Talons isn’t going to create enough of an incentive to care, while extra damage in the execute phase - which Frost is much weaker than Unholy in - purely on the RP spenders could make RP more attractive, at least for a very important phase of fights.

Love the theme of being an obliterator of souls, worried about the gameplay though. While in theory reapers mark sounds cool, it seems like it’s going to be just a button you press on cd that you slam the same obliteration rotation into, it’s gonna explode and do what I could only hope is a ton of damage, then you go back to the same old terrible frost filler.

Exterminate sounds cool, even if it is just an amped up obliterate. I hope these get a lot of attention put into them to really make them a fun playstyle

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I cannot wait to see this Hero Tree in-game. It sounds fantastic in theme and visuals. As I was reading it, I got major Malthael from HotS vibes. I really hope there are lots of skulls and souls and scythe effects with this tree.

As others have mentioned, it does feel like this tree is missing a utility node compared to all the others. Since they have problematic locations on the class tree, I would love to see some improvements for/ interactions with Wraith Walk and Asphyxiate (Death’s Bargain -for Death Pact- being a great example).

Additionally, the tooltip for Reaper’s Mark is a bit unclear. Particularly, I am not clear on what triggers the explosion nor what part of the ability has the extra 3 minute limit. Improving that tooltip will also probably fix some concern with Painful Death, which currently seems a bit underwhelming compared to Swift End.

If there is no intention to pull power out of KM obliterates then Frost design will go directly against the main talent Reapers Mark where you have 12 seconds to get 40 or 50 stacks and you aren’t doing that with Obliterate alone.

Also how does 2h vs DW come into play here? Since things like Frost Strike and Obliterate deals damage twice with DW does that mean 2h just takes rider? DW would stack twice as fast from the looks of it.

Something has to be in the works for Frost just through the design of Reaper’s Mark.

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After looking at this again more carefully, at least from the perspective of Blood, this tree actually looks pretty nice.

Earlier opinion revised, this looks neat.

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yeah i hope it makes the ice of frost look more shadowy, and the shadow of blood more frosty.

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Would it be cooler if the hero tree was named Reaper? I think it would have been cooler

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On the bottom right choice node I think death’s messenger is cool, but could the other one be changed to something that makes it so you exchange raise dead for like +5% str? I wanna spec out of having a pet.

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also 30s cooldown reduction literally means nothing. it just unalines it from your 1-2 min cooldowns.

No it doesn’t. Its the same as having a 1m and 2m cd. Icecap would be the thing that throws everything out of wack. Unless you can get pillar down to like 30s cd.

4m 2m 1m 30s all line up nicely.

This feedback is given in the context of Frost in high-level raids and mythic+.

This is by far my favorite of the three DK trees presented. It builds around a single idea, and I love how everything in the tree feeds into Reaper’s Mark. I’m looking forward to digging it with more specifics when it is available for testing. In the meantime, there are a few questions/concerns:

  • Will Reaper’s Mark stack from damage to any target or just the marked target? Will the stack cap be easily reached against one target? Funneling damage from multiple mobs into more stacks on our chosen target would be more exciting.
  • The interaction between Dark Talons and Bind in Darkness is concerning for Frost trying to juggle Obliteration and Breath of Sindragosa builds. BoS can generate Reaper’s Mark stacks free from the GCD, giving it a clear edge. Obliteration stands a chance; it won’t be totally unable to generate stacks, but its main button is a Rune spender that deals Frost damage only. Oblit would need something like Bind in Darkness empowering Kiling Machine to keep up.
  • How will the refresh work on Rune Carved Plates? Does each stack have its own duration? Will it fully refresh on rune generation/spending?
  • Death’s Bargin is lackluster. Death Pact is awkward to take right now and is our weakest defensive in most situations.
  • Expelling Shield is weird. I’m not sure what the intention is. Maybe it’s for PvP? In PvE, this seems to have little to no use, as the main incentive for slowing cast speed is to allow more time to react with a kick. But to get the enemy to damage AMS, you need to let them cast. Personally I’d love to see Mirrorball make a return here. Or the option reworked into something that gives movespeed. The tree is a bit lacking on utility.
  • Wither Away is completely overshadowed here. Dark Talons giving more stacks of the mark is incredibly appealing, more dot damage is not. Maybe if Blood Fever granted a 100% chance for shadowfrost damage, Wither Away would have a niche for rapid stacking in AoE.
  • Painful Death is not terribly appealing as written. To make it appealing, either the higher stack count needs to be a serious advantage or it needs to make the first Exterminate have a guaranteed second Reaper’s Mark. Swift End will mean you will always get 2 marks per minute, with 2 15% chances for more. Painful Death will only have 1 mark per minute and a 30% chance for another. It’s not very appealing unless the stacks are exponentially scaling, and having 50 is a severe advantage over 2 40s.
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They should do the same thing. One being passive and one being an on use (aside from BoS).

But realistically there should be no problems getting to either 40 or even 50 stacks.

Do something besides apply soul reaper when below 35%.

Maybe something like frost strike deals x% more damage when the target is below 35% HP.

Soul Reaper needs to just be replaced with a similar passive or other new keystone. It feels horrible to use as long as its on the GCD. Its a complete gamble in PVP and a waste of a global.

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Deathbringer is extremely underwhelming. Why is it focusing so hard on Reapers Mark? The final talent point is also very lackluster. I’m getting very strong Legion vibes; those two toooootally tubular ghost swords that literally just sat there in static orbit of the character model, waiting to proc. Something about this entire talent tree, from the ability it’s based around, to the potential visual affect this will have, seems half-baked.

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What do you expect Hero Specs to do in this case?

Im getting strong Malthael influence. From Reaper’s Mark (though different in a way) to Wave of Souls (Death Shroud) to the Scythes that will be present.

get rid of dnd cleave make it remorseless winter instead, unnerf deathstrike & ams, make pillar 15 sec again, make dk actually fun for once

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Stop asking for them to nerf stuff.

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… I obviously take issue with this specific skill being the focus. Namely that it’s an execute-based ability, significantly limiting its window of use and utility. And we’re assuming its graphical presentation will be up to par. I won’t hold my breath on it.

If you’re sincerely trying to critique my take on the basis that it focuses on specific abilities rather than this one in particular, you’re not equipped for this discussion.

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