feedback that is “clearly BM isn’t going to choose this tree” is based off of nothing. you have no idea what pack leader is going to look like. you have no idea what tuning will look like in alpha. you are making generalized claims based off of incomplete data
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Dark Ranger as BM / MM feels wrong. Nathanos and Sylvannas, the Iconic Dark Rangers, both fight Tyrande with Dual Wielding, and one of Sylvannas’s biggest scenes in BFA is her using Dual Wielding against Saurfang. PLEASE swap Sentinel and Dark Ranger; Sentinel makes more sense for the BM Hero Path on account of the close bond they have with their owls.
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Are you kidding?
If Pack Leader is balanced with this current iteration of Dark Ranger, then BM’s options will be significantly weaker than MM’s options. That is unlikely, so the assumption is that a pet-centric hero talent tree will be as strong for BM as this tree is for MM. I don’t think that’s much of a stretch.
ASSUMING Blizzard makes Pack Leader as strong as Dark Ranger is for MM, it’s clear the vast majority of BM players will choose Pack Leader over Dark Ranger.
The only other option is for them to somehow balance Dark Ranger to be equally as good for both BM and MM, but that would require a lot of work. I doubt they will go back to the drawing board after showcasing it publicly.
The most glaring issue is MM’s Mastery: Sniper Training, which increases all ranged damage. Black Arrow is ranged damage. That means Dark Ranger will be significantly stronger for MM Hunters. Not only Black Arrow, but also abilities buffed by Dark Ranger(Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, Kill Shot).
How do they balance it between the specs? Make it baseline and not affected by Mastery, but that is unlikely to happen. Part of MM’s Mastery is increased range. Imagine if MM Hunters were range limited to 40 yards by Hero Talents.
There is so much to consider here, but apparently you can’t see that deep into the problem.
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Aight so read the tree many times over;
I love it. I do think some tweaking should happen; Dark Chains seems very PvP centric, which, ok I guess but a bit of a feelsbad node for PvE.
I would love seeing Wailing Arrow in a better spot in the trees and make Dark Ranger interact with it somehow, like “Black arrow damage has a chance to reduce Wailing Arrow CD” and the like, thematically they are so insanely cool.
Regardless this is making me want to work on my hunter.
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when your initial feedback was “this is bad because I just know it is” without any explanation or rationalizing at all, what do you think people will read that as? do you think they will read is as backed by theory or a walked through thought process?
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Did you read my first comment? Or are you basing this entire argument off my response to your previous comment? Scroll up. In my first response in this thread I posted a very detailed comment about my issues with Dark Ranger.
yes I am responding to your initial response of me when you got mad that I suggested that each spec has 2 different hero talents to choose from if the “fantasy” of one isn’t what someone prefers for their character.
did you read mine?
I read the entire thread, but that doesn’t matter. You tried to diminish another person’s opinion about these hero talents by saying “i mean tbf that’s why each spec gets 2 hero trees”. That’s just a dismissive comment, so I figured a dismissive comment in turn was warranted.
As it is, I stand by my opinion. When you have Hero talents that are substantially stronger for one spec than another, it’s just an illusion of choice. Sure, you can choose it, but it’s like having a choice between a turkey sandwich and dog food for lunch. If you really like dog food, go for it, but it’s not a viable choice for the vast majority of the playerbase.
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again…we don’t know that’s the case 
the person was talking about fantasy, not optimal output.
blizz said they want both hero talents to be viable for most players but understand a certain subset of players will always pick optimally even for small gains. that’s 100% unavoidable
But we do… I’m not sure how you can’t see this.
As they stand, Dark Ranger Hero Talents can go two ways.
Option 1(most likely imo): Black Arrow is affected by Sniper Training Mastery, making DR Hero talents significantly stronger for MM than BM. Sniper Training for my character is about 54% extra damage.
Option 2: Black Arrow is not affected by Sniper Training Mastery, meaning it will negate part of that Mastery and negatively affect the extended range component. This would result in outraged MM players.
No matter how you slice it, it’s imbalanced.
At this point, I think you’re just desperate to not admit you’re wrong, so go ahead and continue on with your ignorance.
That’s just double speak. A “certain subset” would be ~99% of players. This is literally what I mean by the illusion of choice. You seem to think the illusion of choice means no choice. If there was no choice, I would say that. Illusion of choice is a choice between a good option and a bad option, where nearly every reasonable person would choose the good option.
At the moment I don’t really mind what I am seeing. I like more survivability. I like Black Arrow. I don’t really want yet ANOTHER (MM) button to bind, though. So I would prefer it if Black Arrow replaced another talent. Like have it replace Rapid Fire for MM, and during the Black Arrow dot, shadow power courses through the hunter and increases Focus Regen by 30% or whatever. And while I am here asking, put Explosive Shot on the MM tree, revert it to RSV Explosive Shot and make it a choice node with Aimed Shot.
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So its a new ability you have to press it every 30 seconds and all it does is make you use your other abilities faster.
Hmmmmm doesnt sound too fun also we already have too much buttons as is
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i’m sorry but if you think 99% of wow players are playing at the level where a 1-3% difference is enough to change their preferences for optimal play you’re incredibly deluded. especially since, again, this conversation started with someone talking about class fantasy and not mechanical output I think you’re the one that doesn’t want to say when they’re wrong lol
this has absolutely nothing to do with dark ranger vs pack leader for bm. it is not a zero-sum choice. you are talking about marksmanship mastery when the conversation is about choices for BM.
you have absolutely no idea what pack leader looks like and you are basing your entire argument off of pack leader being better for BM in an expansion that’s 1) not out yet 2) not close to being out yet 3) not publicly tested 4) without any changes made.
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Did you miss shadowlands?
The majority people played whatever covenant was bis for them (pve or pvp) whatever content they did do, even if it was a small percentage difference. If something was like 5% worse they didnt pick it. Even bad players that are not at high levels do this.
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I mean regardless there is such a thing as tuning, which they can do per spec even. Even so, I wouldn’t worry about numbers balance at this juncture at all, but just the gameplay feel and impact on rotation
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
The vast majority of players copy/paste their choices from wowhead and icyveins, so yeah, I think 99% is a good guesstimate.
The entire argument is whether BM players will even choose Dark Ranger. Are you following along?
If Dark Ranger is substantially better for MM, then Pack Leader needs to be equally strong for BM to compensate. Otherwise, BM will be outclassed in hero talents. Either you ‘don’t read so gud’, or you’re intentionally leaving out these obvious parts of the argument on purpose.
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You must of missed legion, BFA and shadowlands if you think tuning fixes balance issues. People will play what is best. Something will always be 5%+ better than another thing for X content or more.
The problem is you can only tune so far. In this case we have base problems with how the specs work. You can’t tune past that. It would need a complete overhaul of either these talents or one of the two specs to make it tunable.
For example, Death Shade, which gives a Kill Shot proc after casting Black Arrow. How do you tune past the fact that Kill Shot does so much more damage for MM than BM? The talent would need to be redesigned to fix the discrepancy.
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… Yes and the point is we have no clue what is best based on what we have right now
Like none at all, doesn’t matter if any of it is affected by MM mastery, tuning can change all of that and we won’t know about that likely until beta
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I do enjoy the irony of someone named cognition being so dense 
In terms of feedback I think that barbed shot being the focus instead of kill command is incredibly odd and would be far better off it was tied to kc. Dark ranger having no wailing arrow connection was a big let down as well.
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