MM mains don’t like how it’s set up. This is not BM mains wanting a change on a spec they don’t play, these are passionate MM players that do not like the way spec plays or feels.
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What’s that? (hinting scarcity)
Class feedback overwhelmingly favored BM being at the top. It’s gotten so bad that there needs to be apartheid. BMs, that side. MMs and SVs can either go on the other side, sharing it together, or one stays and the other goes, or both go away into something.
Edit: I think “Ranger” might just work. Obviously not now, but in the next two expacs Blizz should consider it. Because your average BMer wouldn’t give … about MM or SV mains.
Yeah. The BM response to this thread has mostly been, “Well this is clearly a MM tree. Meh.” Most of the discussion has been MM focused.
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We haven’t seen Pack Leader yet. Oh, it better be white on rice. But you see how that works? The BMs don’t care. It’s exactly as you put it. The MMs are trying to figure out whether or not it’s viable particularly in performance. Do BM mains care about that?
They’ll get indignant if this one turns out to be better than Pack Leader, so we’ll wait on that in the springtime. They’ll get even more indignant if Pack Leader benefits SV more.
Honestly, this is already going to be a problem with Retail moving forward, bespeaking nothing of the problem it already has been since Legion. Given now that we’re more than a full xpac cycle ahead, there’s no better time than now to put MM and SV on an exit strategy. Start having seminars about this now, Blizzard…
There’s been plenty of feedback about the trees effectiveness for BM(or lack thereof)
Im not focused on numbers right now because those are just tuning, I’m definitely worried about another set of talents that adds more of the same procs of standard abilities to a spec that’s was swimming in procs anyway(it’s not just MM that’s drowning in ability procs)
That’s a design issue that’s plagued BM(and to a lesser extent MM and SV) for a while.
When Blizz thinks about adding power it’s rarely about empowering abilities through damage or adding secondary function.
The tree is too tentative in the Dark Ranger identity, no one thought it would be “Your shadowy fury and rage lets you barbed shot more often” that’s not what anyone thought would be the pillar, and withering fire enabling a damage window instead of being heavy damage on it’s own is just another limp conditional in a sea of them.
Send the shadow damage
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I don’t dispute that for a second.
It’s either that, or you have either a very dull rotation or ability bloat.
I agree this would be the right idea. Aimed Shot can definitely enjoy enhancements with this. It could stack on a DoT or have a chance to extend BArrow uptime. Things like this…
Where does Cobra fit into it, since that can be a powerful ability to use…
That can be a way for BMs to do plague damage(nature + shadow), which would make them closer to DKs.
Honestly I barely think of Cobra Shot as an ability but you’re right, that’s a great vector for an empowered ability with a secondary effect.
However they shift directions they gotta shift, cuz as it stands this barely fits the fantasy for either spec.
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I gave my feedback on the Dark Ranger here to have it more sorted. I tried to keep the main concerns I have personally rather short, then going too deep in the details (as azor’s video will summarize that pretty good).
Something I was thinking about is maybe getting rid of all the current interactions targeting towards Aimed and Barbed and instead promoting another ability being a viable DPS option for both specs - being Wailing Arrow, I will elaborate on that idea later on - when I got more time to spent on it.
I personally think it would be a fitting ability alongside Black Arrow to fit the Dark Ranger theme. Of course Wailing would need a lot of iteration from being a pure utility tool with an odd wind up skill, but it could become a powerful component instead of being the boring Aimed / Barbed Interaction we have here right now. The benefit I would see in Wailing Arrow being the target ability getting buffed is that both spec share this skill.
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Not a ton of iteration honestly, just remove the cast time and silence. Move the MM capstone over and add Kill Command and Cobra along side AS and RF. Would need to buff the Cobra by 75% or so to make it competitive but that would be pretty simple.
I think that would address most, if not all, of player concerns here.
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Well written, but a few points you missed in your post.
- Black Arrow is a ranged ability, which means it will likely scale with MM Mastery: Sniper Training. If it doesn’t scale with Mastery, then it will have a shorter range than other abilities for MM. Whichever way it goes, Black Arrow is imbalanced between MM and BM.
- Embrace the Shadows being only 15% of Shadow damage is weak regardless of how it works. Shadow damage only comes from Dark Ranger talents. Even if it equates to 20-30% of our damage, 15% of that is miniscule.
- Dark Chains has more negative outcomes than positive. We already have plenty of ways to snare targets (Tar Trap, Wingclip, Concussive Shot, etc.). At the very least, this talent needs to have a toggle to turn it off if desired. Would be a good place for a choice node.
- Shadow Surge having an ICD of 6 seconds is counter to how the BM AoE rotation works. We would lose damage of Beast Cleave by waiting for the ICD to cast Multi-Shot, or lose a proc of Shadow Surge by casting just a fraction of a second too early. Degenerate interaction. The tooltip says “moderate Shadow damage”, and Multi-Shot already does low damage, so the ICD should be removed entirely.
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I agree with that it seems impossible to balance it out between MM and BM with one getting a focus spender and the other getting a focus builder. Something that I liked about the WoD SV hunter was how dot and multistrike heavy the spec was. Drawing on that.
What if Black Arrow had interacted with and reset its own cooldown? With subsequent applications either adding a stack or just a separate debuff entirely? That way it would be the same (with tuning for masteries and whatnot) for both specs and would build on the dotting/rotting of a Dark Ranger.
It would also give more benefit to the shadow damage into healing talent. The other talents could be worked to interact with black arrow as well.
But black arrow simply refunding a charge of something feels lame. At the very least make the next cast of whatever ability do shadow damage so we can feel like a more of a Dark Ranger and not just another dot we spend and forget.
this is one of my biggest concerns about dark ranger. whenever black arrow isn’t on your target, you aren’t a dark ranger at all.
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Understatement of the day. lol
Most of the known Hero talents from other classes add functionality to existing abilities or trigger automatic procs. Lightsmith adds a ridiculous armament that needs to be picked up, but the rest of the tree still follows the theme of added functionality or triggers. Very little need to use a GCD to benefit from the procs, or worry the proc will be lost because the ability is capped. Why doesn’t Dark Ranger follow this same philosophy?
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Valid point, there should at least be some sort of either applied debuff component or a buff component we have on constant uptime. If we are stuck with this fantasy meme at least go all in.
Perfect example, Darkness Calls, instead of increasing shadow damage done, make a % of our ALL damage become shadow damage. Of the 11 nodes, 9 of them revolve directly around the use of Black Arrow. The only two that don’t are Dark Chains, which why put a PVP talent in there, that’s just dumb, and Ranger’s Finesse, probably the nicest simple boost in the bunch.
I want to reiterate that I think Black Arrow is a cool idea. Ability resets are a fun concept. However, it feels like we’re adding another ingredient to an over-stuffed single-serve pizza.
MM has Procs or Cooldown resets on the following talents:
- Surging Shots
- Deathblow
- Legacy of the Windrunners
- Lock and Load
- Readiness
Hero Talent Reset talents:
- Black Arrow
- Death Shade
- Shadow Assassin
This is a LOT of indexing on abilities being reset or becoming available. This is a pizza getting extremely soggy and bogged down by the class design. I’m thinking in particular about Precise Shots and keeping up Steady Focus. With all these new talents, there will be even less room to fit in two Steady Shots, and even less room to fit in procs of Aimed Shot or Deathblow or Surging Shots.
dont worry…all 3 hunter specs are going to have a more crisp spec tree that will make our concerns a thing of the past #copium
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Stranger things have happened.
Remember when Dragonflight was about to launch and the BM 4pc was just a Focus saving effect that got so much negative feedback it was changed a short time later with the following note?
“Developers’ note: We heard you that focus was not a valuable reward in all scenarios so we changed this bonus to grant more damage to the abilities enhanced by the (2) Set Bonus.”
It was then changed from:
- (4) Set Bonus: Barbed Shot has a 50% chance to make your next Cobra Shot or Multi-Shot consume no focus.
to
- (4) Set Bonus: Barbed Shot damage increased by 5% and Barbed Shot increases damage of your next Kill Command by 20%.
You’d think they would have learned back then, but Blizzard’s turnover seems to be crazy high these days. I can only guess the available Devs have no clue how the specs work.
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I still think hunter needs a soft rework.
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To compare to the mage proc, its Instant cast, 100% crit and 80% aoe splash dmg. That would be a cool shadow explosion effect to have. Plus Id rather it be you can use aimed shot without consuming a charge or focus (like lock and load). That, at least, doesn’t have the clunky risk of charge capping.
And the shadow chains… a 40% slow is so laughable AND its only 1 target (pets soaking this like crazy) AND its auto removed when they move 2 steps… Id rather the chains be reworked to link multiple targets together and maybe chained targets take 15% shadow dmg that the other recieves?? idk something like that would be cooler. If they are hell bent on having it be a pvp utility then it needs some serious buffs.
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Just make it a root and the problem is solved.
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