Imagine… IMAGINE if you could alter abilities that you bring back so they’re reminiscent of the original, but reflective of the game today. You understand that Explosive Shot isn’t the same as it used to be, right?
There are plenty of ways to bring back Wolverine and make it a meaningful key press. Put it on the GCD. Give it the Howling Blast treatment so you COULD use it as a focus dump, but best to hang onto it until you get your mega proc. Make it the focus regen for BM and move Barbed to SV where it belongs. I could write whole list for you if you’d like.
When the material is bad, its bad.
When the material is ok, its ok.
When the material is good, its good…
Where does the surv tree fit? Bad.
Where does the hunter tree fit? Bad.
Where would the surv tree fit if it had more choices, more direction, fitting themes, and less then 9 choices for either KC or KS? Ok.
Where would the hunter tree fit if it had good capstones like the other class trees, didnt have traps or normal spells like SS and predator in the bottom 3rd but in the middle? Good.
See, i am fully capable of being able to judge the trees in accordance with where they stand and rate them against other class and spec trees. Its just that they grade bad. Thats not my fault. If i was judging warrior trees i would say hey at least we aint as bad as the hunter trees, lets do some adjustments. Or lock, or rogue, or any other tree. But watching the alpha testers complain about little piddy crap and no one had the balls to come out and say blizz, surv is ****, fix it, then ill do just that.
Like i said fix it, and ill call it ok, or good, or great.
I mean, you’re bringing up an ability, that was pure fluff, that was removed about 10 years ago, and trying to say that bringing it back, would somehow improve the spec.
Perhaps we don’t need to bring back Wolverine Bite, perhaps we need to get another ability with some reactive gameplay.
I’ll agree with you there, but when you say, “just bring back X” “oh, but not like X, instead change it to be YZW” it’s bad feedback / suggestions.
If you could propose some type of proc ability, that was engaging and somehow hooked into the spec (rather than “hit shinny button for damage”) I would be interested to see it.
It doesn’t cost resources, so your just hitting shinny button with 0 spec hooks.
What mega proc are you waiting for ? Why do we need another focus dump when we already have Cobra / Kill Command ? Is it more dmg than Kill Command ? Is it more damage/utility than cobra ?
So… just rename barbed shot and not change anything ?
Only 1 of 3 suggestions that you listed has any interaction with bm toolkit. And it’s just a rename of existing ability. So again, if you want to come up with ability that interacts with the spec toolkit + possibly proc based, feel free to suggest one, so far you haven’t done that.
Sometimes in casual discussion forums, people will just spitball ideas without fully fleshing out the suggestion as a means to get a convo going, or brainstorm other potential ideas/solutions. OR point out shortcomings in the existing system. OR whatever.
It’s pretty clear old WB won’t work as a rotational ability. Since you’ve done us the service of outlining why the half-explained examples I gave won’t work, in your opinion, what would work?
Honestly, it’s a bit harder to figure out a good ability to put in.
We already have Bloodshed for another damage amp.
Having some ability do heavy pet damage w/o focus cost just turns into free dmg that u hit when shinny.
Having some ability do heavy pet damage with focus cost has overlap with Kill Command and w/o the kill command synergies will be a bit weird.
Having it give focus could be somewhat interesting, but it would also be a bit going into barbed shot territory, and if we want to make it a proc could be very meh.
If we’re trying to make it something that isn’t “hit shiny” we likely want it to be something that we only hit sometimes (say during BW) but there we also have an issue with Killer Cobra design space, and trying to not hit buttons outside of Cobra - KC combo.
I guess only thing i’d possibly add, is something that’s :
A spender
Not 100% uptime
Converts say a portion of damage done while it’s up into additional DoT (ie Ignite)
For flavor healing you for a portion of that dot’s damage.
It would have some sort of proc to get a weaker/shorter effect on the target.
(Alternatively, it would be another pet buff, rather than an enemy debuff, to get some type of AoE scaling)
Where idea would be to try and use it during burst windows for additional damage, and with it already having say ± 30% uptime working around holding it for burst.
But it does matter, because it changes the viability of its downstream talents by stealing away their strength.
The more that is put into Guerrilla alone, the lower the value of its downstream (Improved Wildfire Bomb, for instance), which then reduces the freedom one has to choose how much they wish to invest into this or that theme.
But they literally do, and even have specifically for Survival across this expansion?
…You’re honestly going to tell me that you would forgo taking bombs whatsoever, a 1-point investment for over 8.33% AP/sec AoE, or the two added points of for over 10% AP/sec AoE of Guerilla for… what, exactly?
2% more crit damage, which would pay off over it only if you were somehow doing at least 200 AP/sec AoE at 25% crit chance (without any use of Bombs, mind you)?
Picking up WFB does not hinge on one’s later taking WFI.
No, I agreed only that it shouldn’t be the sole route to Wildfire Infusions.
Viper’s Venom is far from a dead talent. SS is 152.4% AP over 12 seconds. The DoT portion alone applies 10.5% AP per second per target to whom it’s applied. That talent is sufficient to maintain it on up to 3 targets, for up to 31.5% AP per second, with tremendously synergetic effect from Volatile Bomb.
Granted, one will take Serpent Sting anyways, but that still allows frees up 12.5% of GCDs per target towards further direct damage or Focus generation. That significantly outpaces competitors the likes of Bloody Claws, Sharp Edges, Tactical Advantages, or Ferocity.
When it has a 30% chance to apply Sting, Raptor does 50% more AP than Sting itself, and your other options are on CD, and a sting wouldn’t otherwise fall off just before a Volatile… yes, you should be tab-targeting your downtime Raptor Strike onto the new or low-SS-duration targets.
Ahh, right, Guerrilla Tactics only previously outpaced other talents by some 6x potency. We need to outdo that by allowing Carve to apply over 125% extra AP in DoT damage per target that can set up Volatile Bomb. But of course.
…I get that you want your preferred playstyle to be convenient and more powerful than its competitors so you can play it and only it, but… please at least acknowledge the concepts of balance and choice?
I would suggest that giving it 100% uptime, a focus cost, and large damage bonus when a condition is met would be a reasonable way to go. Having it always available to press would prevent macroed use, but there would have to be a reason to press it outside of those BIG damage windows, because otherwise you’d only ever use Cobra. Maybe that’s OK? Not sure.
Having played a bit of Frost DK, I can say it’s very satisfying to press Obliterate or HB when you get procs. However, the abilities that enjoy the proc are core to your rotation, so it wouldn’t be quite the same for BM depending on how the ability was implemented.
The following is all a flight of fancy and something I have suggested before. I’m not going to write up the entire changes that would need to happen to support this because I’m lazy.
Serpent to the upper left of the class tree
Barbed to SV as focus gen - with or without frenzy. Maybe a different mechanic entirely.
Kill Command exclusive to BM as the chonky big hit, first choice on the spec tree.
Focus dumps are all Arcane shot, but change by talent depending on your spec (Cobra for BM, OLD explosive for SV), though MM just gets reduced cost, additional talent for Chimaera if you REALLY want to use that f-shack on its own branch.
New ability for BM to generate focus (maybe WB??). Could potentially function similarly to BS, but I’m not sure. Would need additional thought.
My thing is I FEEL like BM should be more pet oriented than it is now. If you’re a master of beasts, why do you need a bleed shot to inspire them into a frenzy? People keep telling me on here that it’s a different relationship than SV, and that you command the pet rather than be its friend. If that’s the case, I’m just going to say something to get it amped up. Like saying “You wanna go for a WALK?!?” is enough to get a dog bouncing off the walls. I’m sure there are other less scrupulous training methods to have a dog go bananas on something or someone with a word. An animal that is under your command shouldn’t need the sight or scent of blood to do that. And if the site or scent of blood send a pet into a rage, I’m going to suggest the Hunter doesn’t have command of it.
I also think Crows should play a bigger part in the rotation (or at all). Maybe instead of SS in the upper left, you stick crows there instead, and then add talents that empower other things when active, or maybe do AoE swirly-bois when X criteria is met? EDIT: in the BM spec, NOT class tree. Again, not sure, but it’s a bummer to have a bunch of animal abilites and then not be able to enjoy more animal interactions. I guess people may complain about the Zookeeper side of that, but if you don’t want animal interactions, BEASTMASTER is probably not the spec for you.
Ahhh, now i see. You want to take the power away from the bombs and infusion and instead want to push it into bad capstone talents.
So let me get this straight. You would rather have a weakened bomb and be forced to tab target mobs through a 45 min dungeon to apply ss then to agree that its more fun to have hydra’s bite or carve apply SS so you can focus on more fun spells? Stupid.
Your approaching this from right hand spec build first while I am approaching this from a left hand tree build first. By pushing to dismantle bombs you just dismantle surv’s ability for aoe. And yes, I think its more fun to push 4 buttons for aoe then 8.
I’d disagree that having a “always keep this on” 100% uptime 2nd maintenance debuff is fun (but that’s just me).
I think it’s drastically different from BM in a world where CS + KC interaction exist (and both cost resources)
I think there’s a lot of changes here w/o a lot of actual change in gameplay. Might as well just change icons and it would be ± same.
Depends, they’re more active in AoE situations where things die and are very effective there, but again, don’t think that most people enjoy having multiple maintenance debuff/buffs at the same time.
I literally take the left-hand build into Infusions.
…I can’t solve your reading comprehension issues here, mate.
It’s very simple:
I prefer that currently must-take points beyond the entry abilities not be must-takes, which means bringing them down and/or their competitors up, be that through individual power or collective power (pathing, power of upstream or downstream talents).
I prefer to be able to invest in themes to granular degrees. I’d like there to be more choices surrounding Bombs, for instance, than just to-Tactics or to-Infusions.
Not just you. Among those actually playing, instead of armchair-deving off on-paper identity alone, it seems like debuff play that is at least occasionally situationally varied tends to be preferable to rigid debuff play.
It doesn’t take long for people to realize, for instance, that something like Shadowbolt dealing 15% more damage per DoT afflicting the target would only be “synergy” or “identity” on paper, and ultimately just constrain play, given their DoTs already outpaced the base Shadowbolt damage so quickly such that the new “feature” only left a 3-7s TTK hole where they used to have an optimizable option and cost them base Shadowbolt damage in turn, simply leading to a more sluggish spec with no new affordances and a small added internal balance mess.
Well, i could get behind your argument if blizz did more then just slap the old bomb talents on a tree and call it a day. I would have loved to see more bomb oriented spells on the left side of the tree so that there was more horizontal movement in the tree. But instead, they threw in a little focus oriented talents and some range on the left and called it a day, while stacking the bad CDS so surv does zero damage outside of CA or SH cooldowns.
That would be my preference, but even just buffing IWFB and improving pathing to WFI would go a long way.
Same. 100%.
Yeah, I don’t get it either.
Not entirely sure what you mean here.
Also, food for thought: if they just expanded Shrapnel Bomb’s triggers to include all special attack hits, Fury of the Eagle would mean pretty much instantly maxing its Bleed stacks—which can’t be AoE-capped—which means again getting disgustingly uncapped AoE burst pretty frequently (per 45s, or roughly twice per 45s with Butchery).
I’m sorry, I said that wrong. It’s available to be pressed, but not necessarily applied 100% of the time? Not sure how to word that. Like a focus dump IF that was the end result for that specific skill. On the other hand, if it were a builder, it would need to be gated in some way. All about application, I guess?
I have a hard time separating the suggestions because my ideas are kinda linked together. I’d really like many things shuffled around to be more, I dunno, spec specific?
I was reading the Wolverine/kill command comments. What if what if wolverine bite just replaced KC? Then KC replaced kill shot (with the +50% dmg baked in). You could give KC an even stronger effect by making it a guaranteed crit if wolverine bite crits. You could fish for huge execute crits.
But this is something I just thought of in a few seconds…so idk.