And yet people tote her as being the Horde’s best Warchief ever, and a tactical genius due to what she’s accomplished.
And to that I say…
Highborne are very different from Kaldorei. The Sin’dorei and Nightborne have held onto those Azsharian habits, which Is probably why they align themselves with the Horde.
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The Chronicle map sure does say Night Elf Empire. Don’t seem very different to me. One that was very xenophobic for a while.
Race =/= culture.
Which isn’t my claim.
your really nit picking but i will bite;
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now your saying they should of settled else where and remove the local poulation? ya that wasn’t thrall’s horde.
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killing spirtis they didn’t know were spirits. Again their intent wasn’t to kill and chop, it was just to collect wood. And no ne didn’t talk before attacking. Hard to place the blame, they were right on their perspective as were the night elfs.
But to put this to rest, chronicales has Cenarius saying it was his mistake. He sensed fel and attack. Not chopping wood or killing spirits and he regrets it.
So by night elfs them self they do not blame the orcs.
- Again Cenarius who attacked them, places the blame on him self or regrets his actions. What more do you need brother?
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They’re very different culturally, but the Kal’dorei still suffer from the traditional traits that most elves struggle with. Arrogance, pride, ethnocentrism, isolationism. The NEs in particularly are rather dogmatic with their ideology, and its proven to make them rather incomparable with other cultures (other elves for certain, the Draenei, but they did try to genocide the Orcs under Cenarius at one point … which resulted in pushing the Orcs (under Grom) to reinvest in Fel Blood and ultimately Cenarius’ death).
And completely redesigned in Warcraft III.
As I see it, the Horde and the Night Elves suffer from the exact same problem: lazy writing. The devs find it equally easy to reach for the “evil bat” for Horde and the “victim bat” for Night Elves, despite the fact that those aren’t the things either group is supposed to be about.
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See, I think night elf fans would be the poster boys for what Pellex said. You guys literally won every single battle and point of conflict in Cataclysm.
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Why is it that every Horde fanboy forgets that Alliance “winning” involves the following?
- Help the Horde find themselves again.
- Be Horde’s Punching bag for months which will include Alliance locations being nuked.
- Be told you are not allowed to retaliate because of “muh hunur”
- Books, outside of the game, tell you how awesome Alliance is.
- Repeat the previous steps.
Do Horde players think Alliance players actually enjoy this?
You must be joking.
Have you even played Ashenvale or Stonetalon questlines?
All Alliance players get to do is fight off an attack, put out fires, kill some NPCs and then told to go elsewhere.
Meanwhile Horde is occupying everywhere.
Why? Bad guys win all the time. We are not and should not be operating under some computer game version of the incredibly dated Hayes Code. I’d actually argue bad guys probably win more OFTEN than heroes do. This isn’t a young child’s cartoon, it should probably show some more nuance than one.
Nope. But it’s not like Horde players are enjoying our “winning” here either. But the person I replied to insisted it was winning and that the night elves have it worse because they don’t “win” which is clearly untrue.
Yes I have. Apparently you haven’t. Your questing has Thal’darah completely evacuated prior to being bombed. Horde questing and CDev agree that the Horde army there was disbanded and they abandoned the zone after Garrosh executed the Horde commander for that attack. In Ashenvale you were told “we got this, you go on to Stonetalon” because you’d turned the tide and CDev material (also affirmed by things like Zoram’gar having been abandoned in recent fiction) confirmed that the Horde had been entirely kicked out. In Darkshore you’d completely driven off the Horde elements. Feralas likewise results in victory for your side. You won literally every fight and point of conflict in the night-elven questing. You just don’t like the way the table was laid.
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There is a difference in dedicating entire in-game events be they quests, cut-scenes, cinematic and etc… centered around Night Elves being beaten versus a brief mention in a book.
So the Alliance player has to put up with that. But you are equating all that with “in this book, so and so said the Alliance won. So there. You win. be happy.”
Is this seriously what you are advocating?
God forbid the Alliance player is allowed to like the Horde player to drive up to a faction town, kill everyone inside it and with phasing take over the base.
rather than get told “Na we got this, thanks for putting out the fires. Now run along to Stonetalon and witness a whole town getting nuked!”
Yeah. I bet the Alliance was jumping up and down to hear a brief mention on a random book that Alliance now has 99.9999% of Kalimdor under their control. Because that sure feels like it in game.
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I mean if you really wanna ignore civil wars and cultural shifts to disingenuously saddle a race with the misdeeds of the people they fundamentally disagreed with… The current Horde has done nothing but constant genocide since the first war and was always, always, always evil. Except one year when one of their leaders came in through their characteristic revolving door of leadership, decided they were hippies for a while, and then nearly immediately resumed genocide.
Honestly? I’m okay with this.
Bingo! Precisely the point I was making. And yet you do so in the same post.
Right… because there were no other options… Actually there were, but Thrall wanted the orcs to repent for their demonic past… But ironically needed to wage war against their neighbors to do that… Which Thrall had no issues with, apparently.
Orcs first instinct is to kill what they don’t understand.
…. You’re right. It’s like Minecraft. You just slap the tree and wood comes out…
Subjective morality is a stupid concept. Every villain believed they are right.
Blizzard slapping a bandaid on it doesn’t make it better. And this is just another example of Night Elf lore getting white washed for other races.
Kaldorei
Not really. They see progress differently than most others. They lived 10,000 years in peace, free of poverty, hunger and disease. Everything in abundance and everything renewable. They lived one with nature, while every other race seeks to dominate it. That’s wisdom, not ignorance. They are afforded some pride because of that.
You won IN THE QUESTING. But because the questing didn’t end with a victory banquet posters like you have been insisting it didn’t actually happen. Well later comments by the devs (and not in books, though some fiction has also providing confirming material or details) confirms it did happen.
Yeah, go witness a large empty tree get bombed after you completely evacuate it and have beaten the Horde army back from everything important. Such horror you’ve suffered.
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From the Night Elf perspective, that is actually a big deal… That’s sacred.
Also, the “horrors” the Kaldorei have suffered is both in narrative and out of narrative. Our Victories are rarely our own, and the tragedy we face is usually for the sake of someone else’s story. All of our “victories” happen off screen.
I wish this were still true! Its been sort of deliberately whittled down heavily since Vanilla unfortunately. Heck, we even had a civil war tangentially related to it. Fandral’s backing were the arrogant, prideful, ethnocentric isolationists and Tyrande’s (The Alliance’s) backers were the progressives. It didn’t get rid of the streaks of arrogant flavor running through the race, but its preeeeeetty heavily cut down now. Nelfs are no more prideful of their race than any other on Azeroth now. Elf or not. Which is a dang shame. So much flavor lost.
We went from Nelf NPCs talking smack about their idiot gnome companion’s back in vanilla Stonetalon to the driving force behind the Alliance’s PR and recruitment for other races from BC through Cata and beyond.
And this is as much lazy flavor loss as it has been deliberate story on Blizz’s part. Beyond being gratuitous murder fodder so they can be measuring sticks for how high the stakes are in the story, Nelves have had a decade long arc about how more open they’ve become and how much they’ve shed their past prejudices. Its kind of our whole story.
Not an unfair expectation when the expansion was more than happy to do unprecedented things like take a flight point away from the Alliance when they lost, or turn a zone into the Horde faction symbol. The Horde got their banquets. We didn’t. There wasn’t enough time to get it into the game. Would have been cool if you lost Hellscream’s little camp overlooking our town in the heartland of Ashenvale. Or that massive steel fortress y’all somehow got to build deep inside our territory. Logistics always seem to bite the Alliance in their rear but the Horde built HOW MANY steel fortresses in Cata? And lost none? Boy, they sure are good at materializing money and resources out of nothing. Meanwhile we can’t feed horses out in Westfall, lose a flight point, Benedictus and Fandral get villain batted in garbage questlines, etc. The Horde got their banquet scenes and entire zones carved into their faction symbol. We got jack.
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Here is a difference between Alliance victories vs Horde victories.
Horde Victories. Good job we pushed the Alliance back to this location now lets use the Plague (Silverpine) or Nuke (Stonetalon) to destroy the Alliance resistence. Great the damage is done. Now we retreat.
Alliance Victories. Thanks for putting out these fires and defeating these raiders. We can handle the defense here. Attack the Horde base? NO! absolutely not. We defended successfully. Now go to Stonetalon and have fun there.
This is the difference between Alliance and Horde “victories”. Horde players enjoy being part of an attack or beating an enemy into submission.
Alliance have to put out fires and the mere fact that they manage to survive is seen as a victory.
Gee. Thanks for letting me survive. I can’t wait to have more near death survival questlines for every zone in this expansion and the next.
Awesome! Hey can I attack the Horde base there? No? Thats not honorable? Well damn!
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