I have heard that it was a near extinction event, but I don’t believe it. I mean NE have cities all over the place and I doubt how many could fit on a single tree. Although if bliz says that’s the case It’s the case.
I just mean I don’t think it’s really as bad numbers wise as some real world things and people are able to overlook those. So the other members of the horde overlooking it might not be so far fetched.
Still not a good thing and they should not be ok with it. Hell Sylvanas shouldn’t even have been ok with that. It makes 0 sense.
YES. We are responsible for the people we appoint. Especially in a democracy! At the very least the people in this video game have the defense of living in hereditary monarchies or otherwise dictatorial scenarios.
You weren’t crediting at all. Stop it. You were being presumptive to maintain control of the dialogue and your own rhetoric. Which, hey, we have a word for. Its strawmanning.
GREAT. They should leave it.
Back on the topic as you framed it: Thalyssra should leave it. You started this dialogue about the heads of state. I have absolutely no idea why you’re trying to make it about populace or player choice, other than possibly mild issues with projection?
If the Horde do not like genocide, and the leader of the Horde is way into genocide, then what the actual hell are they doing in the Horde?
Most of the Horde doesn’t really believe in the “Might makes right” philosophy of the Orcs. Mak’Gora’s are there as a means to challenge and ascend to the position of Warchief, but that’s only one way of going about it, and it only works if you can safely eliminate the current ruler in single combat.
This applies to any form of government actually, but challenging the rule of Sylvanas can be as simple as disobeying orders, questioning her in public, leaving the Horde, etc. All these methods require public support and for that reason, it’s risky if the support doesn’t come fast enough, but if you don’t gain the support of the public, and the racial faction leaders, then that kind of tells you what the Horde is really about. We can also go about it the same way Vol’jin chose when it was Garrosh, but most of us are sick and tired of Horde fighting against Horde.
Now, the narrative might ultimately pin everything on Sylvanas and call it a day, but we as readers know that she was only capable of achieving what she’s achieved up to this point only because she had the active support or the tacit approval of the majority of the Horde. That may be changing now after Derek, but everything before that is just as much on the rest of the Horde as it is on Sylvanas. That’s what the meta discussions will always be about from this day forward, and Horde players are going to have a very difficult time defending the narrative’s contrived attempt to absolve us of all wrong doing by pinning it all on Sylvanas.
That’s it people. Clear as day. Every single person acording to this lunatic no matter if they voted or not, no matter if they actively opose a bad leader or not are responsable and therefore punishable no matter the fact they had literally nothing to do with what said leader did.
How am I gonna talk to someone like this? Only if I reduce my IQ to monkey levels.
Your logic is flawed, your way of thinking is dangerously wrong. Girl you oficially earned my pitty.
To reference Niinjin and Darethy from earlier today and previous conversations with him respectively, I think this is the problem. Blizzard tends to view intent, not action, as the arbiter of “moral greyness”. We can see this in the Sandwalker quest text of the Alliance side attack on the Vulpera juxtaposed with the actual events happening on the ground as well as with their declaration that WC1 was more nuanced than orcs were bad and humans were good. We can see this in War Crimes as they absolved the Horde writ large for the actions of Garrosh.
This is a player versus storyteller dynamic I don’t think blizzard has comprehended yet.
But yeah, as a player and fan of night elves who has wanted content like Legion for over a decade, only to get it and have the ultimate message be that none of it was for me? Yeah I’m going to be a little salty over that for a while. I’m going to get even saltier when Blizz turns the narrative cogs further and says “The Horde and genocide are preferable to the race you like, and to whom the content originally belonged.”
And I’d sure as hell expect anyone as fans of any of the other races to feel the same when they get jilted so hard. Like Blizz pushing Calia on the Forsaken fans, or WoD on the Orcs fans, or Sylvanas dragging the Horde into division yet again for… a bunch of different fans for a bunch of different reasons, or anything else screwy and genuinely awful feeling.
you had 2 full zones and a raid of night elf lore before surumar. And Surumar was everything the night elves fought against, tyrande was rude to the people there, she returned there because it was her bithplace yet, but surumar was everything the night elves left behind. It was an arcane focused city with a massive disparity between the rich and the poor, were everyone focused more on themselves then others and practiced intense isolationism.
Surumar is night elf lore in the sense it is important historically to the night elves, but culturally it is nothing like them. The only similarities they really had to night elves were the fact they where purple and nocturnal. Tyrande showed her contempt in every single part of the rebellion, flat out saying they should let the rebellion perform the main assault so they could take the brunt of the causalities.
We elect our officials. The responsibility falls on us to make sure they represent us. A failure on their part is a failure on ours to make sure our system reflects us.
Its not our full responsibility, but for !@#!@'s sake, I DIDN’T BRING THE PEOPLE UP. He did. As a shifting goalpost! I have stayed on topic with THIS:
Please, direct all your baffled stares at this poster for conflating the actions of leaders with the desires of their people. He started this line of conversation. I only agreed to the notion of speaking solely about motivations in broad strokes and in the framing of leaders’ choices to keep conversation simple.
I absolutely am. Thanks for the invalidation. If you ever dare feel bad about the direction the Horde or Forsaken story is going I’ll be sure to ask if you’re serious.
But while I’m here and people are getting insulty at me: Yes, culturally the Nightborne do not reflect Night Elves anymore. The Horde’s mud huts and plague filled slime troughs were a much better fit.
I am aware we got monkey paw’d the hell out of with the lore. Thanks for simultaneously reiterating it and saying I should be grateful.
Hope you appreciate the great Horde content coming your way this expansion. I hear the Saurfang/Sylvanas conflict is a real popular one with you folks.
I think that’s a misinterpretation of that WQ’s intro text… but even if that was the intent, is it unreasonable that the Nightborne be the first to go in on an assault against the Grand Magistrix’s forces?
After all, they are the ones who have the most to gain and the most to lose from the outcome of the conflict. It’s their own freedom they are fighting for, they will surely value it more if they have to fight for it themselves. Some of the loyalist forces may also lose the will to fight if they have to take up arms against their own countrymen - so it’s a completely sensible action to take.
…thanbks for ignoring the actual race that their story was a mirror of, the blood elves, who’s general was far more polite during the rebellion and formed a kinship them them, and the fact they both were origanly highborn and have heavily magic societies.
Nightborn going horde makes more sense then them going alliance just by how the alliance and horde generals interacted to the nightborn. Where Tyrande was scornful Liadrin was empathetic.
I’m not- I’m not IGNORING IT. I am saying as someone waiting for Night Elf lore, being told “We’re bringing back NIGHT ELF PLACE” for a whole expansion was exciting! Then being told “Oh sorry, turns out the people we invented for this new lore in the place that pertains to your favorite race? They were a much better fit for the Horde. Sux2bu” was a really crappy monkey paw thing for them to pull.
You are treating the lore as though it is immutable. In which case, I will do the same.
Enjoy BfA. Be sure to vote for Sylvanas in the coming election!
What about Val’sharah, or Azsuna? 2 zones all about night elves, one were they forced everyone to quest with Tyrande and Malfurion, and the fact you got a raid dedicated to fight Xavius, a night elf villain? Do those zones not count?
Am I allowed to resent our first bit of representation since “Hush Tyrande” being our racial leaders getting punked by a dork with a voice straight out of 80s wrestling and “MAI BELUVD” memes? Azsuna was nice.
Legion felt, to me, like the entire flood of red portraits on these forums seems to feel about BfA and their preferred faction/race/characters.
![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")