Elune Cutscene Anxiety Thread

Lore Story Forum
732

While iconography IS important, this is waaay far from literally them Blizz devs saying: “this religion is based upon X irl religion”. Which never happened.

Just like in my example about lights in the night sky getting perceived as UFOs or funny spots in a rando wall becoming an image of a religious figure, none of these things end up being what people sees and asume they are. Simple as that. At the end you prove my point: they put on visual clues BUT never directly confirmed anything, ergo they always left the stuff open for both interpretation AND to be developed in whatever direction they wanted, not only one based upon the irl religion.

Well Baal, they evidenty didn´t follow upon it -not even in TBC-. The angels on the bible are… harsh. The TBC version of the Naaru is more about how people BELIEVES angels are based upon pop culture than an actual biblical knowledge (why do you think people were so weirded by Castiel et al the first time they appeared in Supernatural? Cause people had this concept that angels are goodie two shoes that are kind and nice. Unfortunately, this pop culture portrayal is NOT correct regarding the actual biblical ones, though).

I disagree, at the end this amounts to how people interprets the stuff. And the FACT is, these several different interpretations are at the most “closer” or “further away” from the actual portrayal the devs want to give their characters, no more and no less.

So yes, at the end WE are the party guilty in creating our own disappointment. Cause WE wanted to see something that maybe was a 180° to what the devs wanted to portray, period.

Benedikt´s point still stands. NOTHING in the Alliance narrative nor the meta narrative put the focus on how that “horror” is basically caused by acting in pretty evil ways, nope. Suddenly the same morals that love to condem Orcs, Trolls and Forsaken left the chat when Velves arrived.

Quoted for truth.

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733

I think a reason is…while no focus is shown tothe outcome of this situation.

In case of orcs, trolls, forsaken, we saw every time what happened because of their deeds…by the voidelves we saw the start…and then? We are left in an Vacuum of possibilitys what happened toward the zandalari…we don´t know.

734

Side plots ARE fast and given little importance (they are nothing but window dressing to justify the gameplay portion of the game after all). But the actual important plot (you know, the one about the actual REAL Gods and their impact in the actual universe no only physically but metaphysically too) is advancing at a turtle pace. In what, 3 years? we barely managed to learn they exist, and that something they left behind is one of the things impulsing a Death B tier “deity” schemes in Azeroth. We STILL don´t know why Azerotyh is SO important, for example. If the fact our PCs developed there is what let them run rampant in what is basicallñy another plane of existence, etc.

In a way Danuser´s state as a GoT fanboy is reflected in here. In the ISOIAF book series, the most critical AND important plot IS the one related to the White Walkers (they ARE the actual menace harrasing the Humans that can wipe them from the planet, not the petty political infighting) but somehow the writer almost ignores it, George develops that part of the plot VERY slowly… he´s in book 6 and we still know almost nothing of the “menace” that needed the colaborative effort of mortals and fairies to stop it an era before).

Well, I suppose an old game which used tons of pop culture references as basis is indeed NOT the best source material to engage more serious and complex literary themes.

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735

So an entire team went together and decided to be hateful towards Night Elf fans now and to destroy everything the Night Elves ever had and stood for.

Interesting…

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736

Yes but that isn’t how your average US person thinks of angels

They just think of angels as magical floating beings of light that are good

It’s dishonest to pretend the Church of Light isn’t based on Apostolic Christian aesthetics with Protestant Theology (ie Sola fide) and that the Draenei aren’t based on Jews + Muslims with Russian characteristics the same way it’s dishonest to pretend the Tauren aren’t Lakota, Sioux, Dine, and otherwise or that Trolls aren’t based on Haitian voodoo and Nahua/Maya/Inka architecture.

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737

You’re all over the place in your dishonesty. For example, you say that angels in the Bible (yet another person singling out the Bible - they’re in the Tanakh and Qu’ran too) are “harsh”, but instead of elaborating on anything Scripture says about angels, you baselessly claim an unspecified amount of people were weirded out by Castiel from Supernatural because he’s supposedly nicer than actual angels.

Then you try to shift the blame off the developers changing canon like they’re changing their underwear… onto blaming some fans for being unhappy they didn’t get what they wanted.

By the way, the same morals that love to say “morally grey” for a mass murdering nihilist like Sylvanas leave the chat when Yrel wants to wage a holy war against her people’s former oppressors.

738

Are they though? Every angry alliance character gets neutered.

739

Since the Night Warrior isn’t soemthing that’s restricted to Azeroth, that’s been a given for some time. As to whether she’s protecting “every one” but a group of “chosen people” on each world she’s active on is another story.

We’ve encounterd other former Night Warriors from Thiernax to the Stonewright, it’s not indicative that either of these were Night Elves or Elves at all in their mortal lives.

We do know that ultimately the power killed Thiernax and that the Stonewright was brought down by her own people when her rage would no longer make any selectivity at all.

740

It’s part of a cultural shift in general. In In Nominee for isntance the Flood wasn’t instigated by God but by Jordi the Archangel of Animals who simply wanted to prune down Humanity as he saw (and still does see) Humans as nothing but a threat to his precious animals.

The Old Testament Angels don’t really fit the EuroChristian portrayal as these shining sexless white guys with wings. Many of them are given shapes in some cases not only not human but downright horriffic to behold. And some of them do some pretty horrific things in order to get God’s point across such as the wholesale slaughter of Egyptian sons.

Also popular media pretty much has Angels putting humanity as not much better than the devil, in essence humanising them to a large degree by giving them emotions such as resentment pretty close to the kind that drove Lucifer to his Fall.

It’s part of the over all growth of the “Good Is Not Nice” trope.

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741

The new testament angels are much more benevolent as the angels in the old testament.

742

The majority of mention of angels in New Testament is Revelation to John so uh

743

Most, but not all of it.

744

God himself is a right bastard in the Old Testament. Origen a major philosopher in the Gnostic movement went as far as to declare the God of Love (Jesus) an enemy of the God of Law (Old Testament God).

745

I know. In my eyes, if you compare the New Testament - with the prevailing religions of the time - is really a surprisingly positive message.

It’s about eternal redemption, it’s about peace, it’s about beneficence, it’s about love. The message of the New Testament is one of hope, which speaks for a very dark cruel time in which it was created.

746

Perfect, then my point has been proven? People perceiving religious iconography NOT based in the actual sacred texts but the pop culture references (movies, comics, novels, etc.) does not an accurate perception make at the end. Ergo, hard to criticize people writting stuff full of pop culture references about those pop culture references not being 100% accurate to our own pop culture references.

In a way it´s understandable, cause actually going all out and actually to try to implement accurate representation would be a massive can of worms. Now THAT would be cause to get irl people pissed over misrepresentation (I mean as fellow latinos, remember “Mr. and Mrs. Smith”? or better yet “The Specialist”?).

THAT`S what happens when people are careless and don´t accurately portray irl cultures on their fancy films/novels/games/whatever.

Nope, what IS dishonest is to pretend to put some weight to the iconography / symbol use the devs take from those cultures and asume that´s somehow a 100% based portrayal. Sorry not sorry Baal, but only if they come out to say “Tauren culture was developed and implemented using x, y and z irl American Native tribes as a basis” we WILL be able to talk about them improperly portraying them and developing them. The most we can do is say they TAKE some visual and cultural references similar to those irl cultural groups, but nothing else. Whatever the damn they Blizz devs feel like doing with their races is free game as long as Blizzard leaves stuff vague.

Sorry but telling you people the fault over your own dissapointment falls only in your own shoulders is NOT dishonesty. Sorry not sorry, I´ll call a spade a spade whenever it´s accurate, period.

And FYI, I mentioned the series cause precisely this little bit was very mentioned in the first interviews Misha Collins gave regarding his character, literally after the first season he appeared. And he cited: we used actual biblical inspiration for the development of the character, cause no wonder people freaked out to see angels and archangels giving no fcensored word over killing humans on their execution of the Will of God. and you know why this happens? Cause people DON´T pay attention to the actual sacred text, DON´T pay attention when they attend mass, DON´T even try to pay freaking attention to the very very Old Easter films like “The Ten Commandments” which didn´t use anything different from the BIBLE to be adapted!!! They believe the pretty vain and superficial stuff people sells them in a Netflix series and they stay with that lack of knowledge, and afterwards make /pikachu faces when other more grounded portrayals are brought to attention.

For someone who puts so much way in “proper portrayal of Abrahamic religion” you surely glossed over a LOT of stuff.

The Book of Revelation disagrees

Damn, you beat me to it.

Angels aren´t “evil” just because they act in gruesome ways to fulfill the Will of God. I mean, if this is the Will of God, who the hell are we to question it?

ALL the major Gods from the timeline of the Old Testament had VERY harsh portrayals. But then again, those were VERY harsh times in which one was probably lucky if one reached the age of 50.

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747

it doesn’t have to be an accurate depiction for it to be a depiction

e.g. Loki vs Loken

That’s horrendously irresponsible and perpetuating centuries of imperialist depictions that allowed creators for centuries to get away with racist depictions of peoples for many years

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749

Yes, this is why I think Aman’thul is the closest thing in WoW to Abrahamic depictions of God and it’s more along the lines of him being the Gnostic Demiurge.

Either way Thadeus will be disappointed.

“God” is a woman. The Eyes of the Earthmother Fairytale it supports the idea that The Eathmother created life parthenogenetically. Ardenweald was created by asexual reproduction by the spreading of mushroom spores.

750

But until they come out to explicitly say so, they can´t be judged. We simply can´t prove the Tauren are 100% sure based upon x, y and z irl ethnic groups cause guess what? We can´t prove it. As i mentioned at the most we can say they take SOME visual stuff and SOME cultural references from those groups, nothing else.

That´s how people can use ad nauseaum those cultural and historical references in their “original works” without having to pay fees or worse, a demand made by the actual irl members of the ethnic group involved under the pretense of damages. They take just enough so WE are the ones that fabricate the connection without them having to explicitly say so. That´s why all those races are a collage of different things but not one hard background in concrete. And this happens everywhere.

Well man, between having more inclusive portrayal and cultural references with less accuracy and having more general non especific cultural references with more space to accurately portray the irl human SPECIES, I rather take the second poison. Cause this way the old racist tropes won´t find a way to perpetuate.

i mean, if you are NOT gonna respectfully develop and construct a character that takes some Native American cultural references for example, then the actual decent thing would had been to remove the cultural references altogether. Cause this way these cultural references don´t send this messed up portrayal that negatively impact irl ethnic groups and the risk of actually offending irl Native Americans is waaay lesser. Only make the cultural references if you are 200% commited to respectfully and properly portray them, period.

And we both now for Blizz Pop Culture >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irl Culture.

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751

They can and must be judged, because that the entire point of depictions and inspirations. It is irresponsible to give creators a pass.

This is what they should be doing.

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752

Then let´s start by ourselves the players, cause what is ROLE PLAY in this gamne if not massive cultural appropiation?

See? That´s the issue… when we actually involve ourselves with honesty, then even us will end up contacting those Native American tribes so they reviwe and approve our character´s portrayals.

It is what EVERYBODY -inclusing us- should be doing, not just them.

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