The person above me has spent the entire thread saying “Ele is fine, L2P”
I mean, unless you are pushing title in M+ or playing in a top 50 raiding guild, ele is quite literally fine for you to play. And even then you can do those things on this spec.
This statement BTW does not negate the fact that ele needs ST buffs due to the ST damage loss we got from the Ascendance bug being fixed; it very much needs it.
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I don’t think the person said that even once. I think he said he was open to helping anyone with any questions about the spec. He also thinks you’re a tool.
Once.
Twice.
Thrice.
4 times.
Plenty of instances of you telling people to just get good instead of recognizing that single target damage is trash because blizzard dumpstered it.
Pot, meet kettle.
I went from being within the top 3 on every fight in my raid group to the being a bottom half resident, only propped up in fights with some aoe, but nearly dead last on pure single target.
As someone pointed out earlier, the 98% parsing ele was still performing near the bottom of his raid. Aren’t we all so glad we had this rework? Nothing like being made weaker because blizzard hates the spec and cant let it be strong for even a season.
I think you’re falsely equating the rework with current tuning. I’ll make it easy for you:
The Rework to our gameplay = Good
The Tuning of the Rework = Bad
FoL Lightning Bolt Spam needed to go into the dumpster alongside Meatball spam. The rework has been a good change for gameplay, going away from these cringe one-button spam builds we’ve been subjected to since Season 2 DF. But the tuning has spoiled our single target, which needs to be addressed. If we get adjustments to our single target, then we’ll be banging since we’re already performing well in M+.
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I’d rather be more powerful and have the pre-rework gameplay because if ST compensation hasnt happened yet, then blizz is happy to leave our ST in the dumpster.
Idk, I think gameplay should always trump actual performance. If gameplay is good and damage is bad you can tune. If performance is good but gameplay is bad, that is a harder task to adjust quickly.
Lightning bolt spam was pretty degenerate and just exacerbated tuning issues by effectively cutting CDs by 40%. I don’t think remaining that way was healthy. Don’t get me wrong, I understand not wanting drastic changes mid patch, but I also think delaying the changes would give less workable data and we would be going through these same issues just later.
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I want you to think really hard about what pre-rework gameplay MINUS FoL would have looked like, because that is the entire reason this rework happened. If FoL gameplay had came about earlier in beta, then it would have been shelled just like it was. We were always going to get a rework since if they just removed the CDR off of FoL and changed nothing, Ele would have been in a far worse spot than it is now since the spec was literally limping by via FoL Lightning Bolt/Chain Lighting spam. So your choices were either the spec dying because FoL was ripped out or getting a rework to compensate for FoL getting removed.
This is a great take. Hopefully they tune ST…
Why would I? When I say pre rework I mean what the expansion released with, not some half baked half rework
They quite literally wanted to get rid of Ele’s gameplay that was present when the expansion was released, which was FoL spam. We would either get FoL ripped out and have a dead spec or get this rework because there was nothing left after the changes that happened during beta when they nerfed LvB and Spenders and made FoL provide CDR for Pwave.
This is pretty robust in terms of a rework minus the tuning, which, again, my FotM reroller friend: How good a rework is and how good the tuning of said rework are two separate things. If anything, the 11.0.0 FoL spam builds were half-baked and made of scraps.
We should have gotten this rework after they nuked Farseer Fire builds during beta. Instead of garbage FoL spam. We just need some single target tuning and we’re mint.
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Sounds like they should have spent more time on shaman during beta instead of a single set of changes 3 months in and never iterating upon them again.
I was talking about your scenario where you asked me to imagine them just taking away FoL.
So, do you agree that the rework is fine gameplay-wise, but the damage tuning (namely the single target tuning) is not and needs adjustments? That is what the vast majority of us are saying. The gameplay is good but it needs single target buffs.
It was actually like 3 sets of changes during beta but again that’s crying over spilt milk.
I never once said the gameplay rework was bad. It’s perfectly fine although I would prefer blizz put more power back into Surge of Power to open up combination play between certain elements again.
I fully agree that the main issue is tuning, but given the choice between old gameplay and old tuning and current gameplay and current tuning, I’m picking the old ganeplay every day of the week.
The other issues is snobs coming in and saying ele is fine and that people should L2P. Aoe may be fine, but ST is abysmal. Blizzard seems content to leave it alone because people are too stuck in their stockholme syndrome and busy dishing out praise for a rework instead of demanding tuning fixes. Now we’re stuck doing rock bottom ST dps while not even being the undisputed kings of aoe.
Remember the abomination of the ascendance form update? The massive outcry and memes got those trolldolls fixed in a week or two.
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It’s not necessarily a gameplay issue, it’s tuning, the values are just lower.
Just feel like Lava Burst needs more damage, 10-15% more, varying more widely due to skill expression and synergies. Or passively, Flame Shocks could use 20% more. Either would probably be about a 2-5% increase in overall.
Gameplay: Flux Melting, Master of the Elements, and Storm Frenzy could see improvements to better promote weaving and combos. Enabling Flux to stack to 2-3, to allow up to 40% would mean Lava Burst could have an amplifier similar to lightning bolts. Storm Frenzy is kind of in a strange space since it was devolved from a PvP talent, since its main synergy is with Aftershock, but overshadowed by Arc Lightning even though it’s for a different trigger.
Losing 30k overnight didn’t kill anything other than spirit when the focus is dialing in the numbers. Part of me wonders if I should just be glad they reversed course on gutting the mastery, or if they should have done it and then had another week of corrections with the pendulum swinging in the positive direction.
As an aside, I think they improved the visuals from an outcry because visuals just appeal to people more universally. They highlighted it in the preview, and they received a lot more eyeballs on product than raid or dungeon performance values from the talent rework. Visual appeal is why a horse skin in the right market place can seemingly make more than an entire cycle of development. Also, we don’t have the population that rivals an outcry like mages or druids
The Devs’ lack of desire to do anything significant balance-wise I’m going to guess is partially due to the MDI Finals and Gauntlet coming up, given not just us but multiple specs that have not received considerable balancing since the end 2nd week of 11.0.5 (Disclaimer: I don’t think this is a good thing at all if ture but my shot in the dark guess give there are specs worse off than us not getting adjustments either).
Again, you seem to think that praise for gameplay invalidates criticism about tuning. Look at the number of people who were asking for ST compensation again. I think your displeasure is clouding your viewpoint.
Them going through with the original Nerfs would have been the worst idea on the planet since it would have been the equivalent of ripping FoL out of 11.0.0 builds: It would require a whole rework to make it work.
Lava Burst getting buffed isn’t really the move since that would raise our single target yes but would also buff our AoE significantly as well (not that I would complain). The direct damage from Tempest, Lighting Bolt, Elemental Blast/Earth Shock are the way to go in terms of adjusting our profile.
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I see TWO ele’s in the TOP 60 TEAMS of the MDI.
You mean to tell me - that you think blizz is failing to balance ele (and namely their single target) because of 2 players that literally don’t matter, in the MDI? Get outta here. I’ve seen some takes in my days (19 years playing wow) - but now this takes the cake.
Facts are facts.
- We received a “rework” halfway through the tier.
- We told the devs what the Ascendance bugfix would do.
- Devs don’t care and didn’t listen
- Gameplay improved
- But we are literal dumpster tier on single target
Thanks for the rework blizz. Next time, spend your resources on us during the beta so that we don’t end up in the dumpster. It’s been literal decades where ele is in the dumpster. The second we are a bit strong, it’s instant nerfs (HUGE nerfs). But when we’re underpowered and under-represented, we’re just where Blizz wants us to be.
Don’t forget that our defensives and utility were essentially halved during this “rework.” And our Poison totem that has existed since forever went from a 45 second cooldown (useful) to a 2 minute cooldown (useless) as well. Now we ride the charts on single target fights next to Aug’s (who shouldn’t exist anyway). We have ONE RANGED spec to play. So We NEED to always compare ourselves to the TOP mage and warlock spec. Period. Blizz’ treatment of ele is inexcusable.
About to ubsub after nearly two decades of play honestly…And you apologists, with your excuses, are just as bad as the devs that did this to us.
EDIT: Sorry, had some quotes that were accidentally stuck in my actual post…but I believe it is all fixed now.
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This includes other specs including ele given multiple classes/specs haven’t gotten balance changes. The Forest versus the Trees. They tend to do tuning after events conclude (RWF, AWC, TGP, MDI). It also why I suspect specs like Enhance, Destro, and Survival hasn’t gotten any further tuning changes. And why specs like Havoc, ELe, and Fire mage aren’t getting changes despite needing them. Again a guess.
This right here. Alot of this would have been avoided if we didn’t get our changes late and had time for iteration. Same for the feedback that was provided during PTR about the bug.
So what you’re saying is people aren’t allowed to praise gameplay being good while the tuning of said gameplay is bad? The fact you call that Stockholm syndrome makes it hard to believe you are a grown adult, there’s just no way your mind works on one track like that.
People are allowed to praise gameplay for being good/much better than it was while pointing out that tuning missed the mark a bit specifically for single target. Like the problem has nothing to do with gameplay, no idea why you are constantly equating it with tuning. Gameplay being good is the most important part of a rework, tuning can -always- happen. The gameplay owns, ele feels super fun to play, and if they adjust ST tuning a bit ele will be in a fantastic spot. Thats a better place to be in than having awful gameplay but good numbers.
Its as if you think being overwhelmingly negative and obnoxious will motivate the devs to do something lol. When it came to the ascendance forms, people still praised blizzard for updating it they just asked if we could get a model not showing the hair and blizzard listened. Just like they will listen here, I imagine they are waiting for mdi to be over though just like they usually do with AWC and pvp tuning.
The only thing thats agreeable is the beta testing. Their beta cycles are still not great, they should have most of their class changes and reworks done by mid beta so they can iterate on it from that point on rather than making sweeping changes a couple weeks before release. Some classes/specs also go completely ignored still sometimes while others get 5-6+ actual dev responses, so that also needs work. Thats even with their extra time to work on hero talents as they released them very early (prior to beta being open). Probably just need longer beta cycles at this point.
Following AWC maybe? It makes sense that they shouldn’t make changes during an event. There’s rarely any changes made prior to big vacation holidays like Thanksgiving or Christmas