The current state of rogues and honestly the state of rogues for quite some time has been poor. Poor due to being convoluted. Not to say we could not pull top DPS or do excellent in PVP at various points in the last few years.
Part of the issue is Blizzard’s need to add abilities that require other actions that stack to obtain its full potential. As a sub-rogue if this was as simple as using a buff such as shadowblades, symbols, or shadowdance that would be fine. But…I need to do much more.
My question to all of you is…do you like this?
I have played Rogue since vanilla and honestly, the class is majorly convoluted. The pure effort I have to put into my rogue versus say, my Survival Hunter, any Paladin spec, any Warrior spec, or half the other classes out there, is ridiculous. Not many people want to play rogues and I believe this is why. Even the “new” “easy” spec of Assassination is convoluted.
I dont need to be rewarded for gaming. My reward is being able to be a degenerate instead of being out in the real world. I think this fact is lost on people these days and it makes for a stale and salty player base.
Rogue in general seems to be a sweatfest for very little return, I’ve played since vanilla and raided at a high level until probably BFA, but this is just meh now, I don’t enjoy it, been enjoying a lot of Classic.
Maybe you missed the point of the post. The idea is that the class is so convoluted, the amount you are rewarded for your effort is less than others. It’s not about rewards in general or rewards just for playing. But effort put in is not effect received.
i just think of the other players as handicapped tbh. especially the classes that hit 3 buttons and do top dps. Those are quite pathetic players imho. Classes like that need to be nerfed to the ground. Nothing worse than the arrogance of meta classes that take a 45 iq to play.
I don’t like it. I played sub/outlaw/combat Rogue until DF, and I was having a horrible time leveling in DF. I felt like it became more convoluted and then I eventually switched to playing Death Knight. The game just became ASTRONOMICALLY easier, and comparing the effort between the two is night and day. It really sucks having to actually use cooldowns for pulling packs because I know I hit like a wet noodle and I am squishy when a lot of other classes just streamroll through things
I do miss playing Rogue, but honestly I think it’s too much effort especially in the overworld.
Never been a fan of Echoing Reprimand for all the specs.
I agree though, and I am a believer of sub rogues should do more damage outside of dance windows.
The issue here is you are talking to the wrong people. The very few that still play this class mostly don’t care class is terrible to lvl, convoluted rotations to get the same or worse results, Has been updated the least since vanilla/tbc.
Most all the ones that did care have moved on years ago. Rogue’s haven’t got any meaningful update to them since cata and even those were really just making things on the class work lol. And this exp I’ve read posts like this a lot "Mained a rogue for XX years first time I’m not. I’ve never seen so many on that, this exp was the last straw of a dying class for many.
It’s been pretty clear since mop no one there cares and it has shown. Even in mop beta they literally said “We view the rogue class as the prefect class so that’s why it doesn’t get much changes.” Which funnily enough is when they started to gut said perfect class and buff everything else. How’d that turn out 12 years later…
I covered this in another recent post
"Many classes over the years have got upgraded versions of what rogues had. So while it always seemed like they never had any new ideas for rogues and so they never really improved on rogue. But they did have the new ideas for things from rogues but put into other classes instead.
Easiest example monk when it came out it was a rogue without stealth but better in everyway when it came to it’s resources. Look at every class they have redone version of combo points (chi, holy power) on notice anything? Set finisher costs can’t vary, has baseline overflow for storing over max costs, Builders don’t rng what they give, finishers only cost 1 resource, on themselves resources rather than on the target. Yes rogues have this now but how many years did that take after all of those occurred for that to happen a lot. And this is just one example there are many many more.
When it comes to just about anything bar stealth another class has be better version of it. The real issue is the only people still playing rogues are people that think “I can do max dmg doesn’t matter how anything else works.” And that’s why no one really plays one anymore."
Rogue use to have the best toolkit of any class and low ramp up outside of cp’s now look at it. It’s not shocking to see it being the least played. And it’s not that other’s shouldn’t got buffed up it’s that rogue stayed unchanged or nerfed while better versions of abilities passed out. Better ways to get the same kind of rotation going passed out while rogue gets more and more convoluted every exp.
I feel like the real problem is that each Spec (for all classes) feel like completely different classes.
When you sit at the character creation screen you are asked to pick a class but once you hit level 10, about an hour into playing, that class changes so dramatically that you no longer feel like a rogue, you feel like an Assassin.
Good for RPG fantasy, bad for class design and balance.
I wish they would take another look at the design of all classes, but Rogues in particular, and move back to having the bulk of your kit the same for ALL specs available.
Then the spec you choose buffs or augments specific parts of those kits rather than replacing 90% of your spells with brand new ones. The idea that you start the game using Sinister Strike, hit level 10 and choose Assassination, and now you use Mutilate is super jarring for a lot of players. I have not given Sub or Outlaw a fair chance due to the dramatic shift in all your spells and rotations.
Class fantasy is another part I just don’t understand anymore. What is the difference between a Subtlety Rogue and an Assassination Rogue? One uses shadow and the other uses poisons?
I will say though having your entire spec based around a mechanic that just flat out doesn’t work most of the time (Vanish and Stealth) is the worst feeling in the world). The majority of my buffs and damage comes from stealth but I can’t use Vanish mid fight if I am solo and half of the combat wont let me start from stealth since it uses Ambush mechanics. (Looking at the wax collection which spawns a mob immediately after clicking it).
It’s also a critique on the current talent trees. Is there really any Assassin rogue out there NOT using Venomous Wounds? Deathmark? Seal Fate?
Even the minor talents that just straight up buff damage like Master Poisoner and Bloody Mess.
Absolutely. It took me a good 30-45 minutes of googling to even understand the Outlaws rotation. It has multiple specs to boot.
I swapped and am maining Warrior this expansion. My warrior can kill 5+ elites solo at the same gear level. Rogue can barely handle 2 (downtime guaranteed, i mean after all. a full heal every few seconds > 20% over 4 sec on a 30 sec cd is NUTS). The warrior rotations are crystal clear out the box and even if you oopsy it there’s zero hit to your DPS compared to not getting our skill order correct in a dance window.
All the effort put into Rogue’s playstle to get a fraction of the return of Warrior or Ret. It’s utterly bonkers Blizzard has let Rogue reach this state and completely phoned in the hero talents.
I dunno guys. Sin rogues are at the top 2-3 of every pvp, mythic+, and current raid tier list for TWW. I agree that they carry some convoluted rotations but the reward…seems to be there.
Just make IC apply garrote and rupture to everything for 6s, set it 3 targets in PVP. Tab target during sonic the hedgehog-minded modern tank pulls is annoying as hell.
My criticism was not whether Rogues can deal top or even decent DPS in content, it was that the class does not feel good to play.
SnD is THE MOST boring button to press in the game, and is a required part of Assassins tools.
All other dot classes have ways to spread or apply them relatively quickly, but Rogues need to build up points just to maintain them and must choose between keeping uptime or dealing their core damage spell.
We have 0 sustain or survive beyond Crimson Vial, which does absolutely nothing to keep us alive in combat and keep moving.
The class and it’s specs feel bad regardless of if they are doing top damage or not.
This post sums up why barely anyone plays a rogue anymore. Every class has been streamlined and modernized rogues still get punished just to be punished. And people don’t find that fun.
Rogue’s are playing in 2004 everyone else is in 2024.
And to be clear on what I mean by that I mean rogue’s are still working of “rules” of the game from 2004 everyone else isn’t. Back when everything had strengths and weakness etc but now it’s the only one playing by those rules.
What blizzard use to call their “perfect class” is now their worst class. And only because they literally refuse to work on it ever. They’ve done the bare min for 6 exp’s or the last 12 years…
Being at the top isn’t the issue. We were top dps and awesome at pvp half the last expansion. The issue is having to jump through hoops to do anything. There is nothing fun about a super complex rotation that gets thrown in the trash every chain pull (as sub) or broken distance (up the butt of the target), or need for complete pvp reset because our tool-kit is all or nothing. The reality is the class just isn’t fun and that has to do with how complicated it is.
Only the player can see reward for effort as a rogue…the rewards can still be high if you put in the effort
It has been this way since classic as a rogue.
If you dont like effort…go play frost DK and get totally bored but top the charts.
Try a lock and just stand there and cast something in any direction without even facing the target
Rogue still has options to spend CP which makes the class engaging and frustrating when u mess up = fun IMO
Seeing the crybabies about having to be in tight melee range without acro makes me laugh
I dont want rogue to be easy.
I dont want it to be FOTM
I want it to be reward for a high level of skill by a player…not some waldo who rolls rogue and owns straight up…otherwise erry1 would play it
Being able to stealth = harder playstyle in encounter … I accepted that decades ago.
Perhaps the whingers should understand this as well.
I think folks are missing the title of this thread. Effort vs Reward. My point was yes rogues take alot of effort. But the reward is there. Now if you put in the kind of effort rogues take and we were steadily at the bottom of the meters…ok. I would agree. But rogues are not. There are several problems (some gamebreaking) with rogues right now. My point was that there is reward for playing a rogue.
Excellent point about talents. Talents should ideally be meaningful choices. No Assassination rogue is foregoing “Venomous Wounds”.
This is a talent that should just be a baseline function of the class because to not take it is to just not know how to play a rogue. Essentially it’s mandatory talent whose absence from your build is indicative our your ignorance. It’s a false choice that currently punishes new players.
It’s 2024 and people still going on about unable to restealth due to chain pulls?
What if I told you that you can definitely restealth 90% of the time even when the tank is chain pulling and you just don’t understand how stealth mechanic work.
