Ebb & Flow of 10.2 Demon Hunter?

Classes Demon Hunter
1

Hello! I decided to level my DH for this patch, and I haven’t played it since Shadowlands.

In Shadowlands I was a Venthyr DH and It was just basically just apply a dot, eye beam to keep said dot up and do a 1 2 3 rotation and eyebeam again to make sure the dot never fell off and Meta on CD.

In this patch I was lookin up the most popular build(Here: https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/demon-hunter/havoc/DAOEFFVQREaBUUYiUBQNRQVVVUJRVBIlECUU) , and it seems to revolve around Inertia and Essence break which are like 5 and 4 second windows for really pushing your damage.

So I’ve been using Inertia before I Hunt, or right after I eye beam to meta into Annhilation/Sweeping, or Intertia right before Essence break while meta’d to do a big damage modifier combo.

Was just trying to see if there’s anything about this I should be doing better, I often find myself waiting on the next immo, and there seems to just be RNG around whether you get another free immo after you use it, and the spec just feels like it has more buttons now(Sigil helps us build Fury!)

I tried reading the WoWhead guide and honestly smoke was coming from my ears from overload compared to how the spec used to play in SL. Just trying to figure out what I should be looking for in moment to moment gameplay.

2

Do you like the movement play style? Or prefer how it used to be?

The inertia build vs low movement build for M+ are really close in dps. I simmed them a few days ago on a 475 ilvl dh and it was a 0.6% difference.

And I think its close from the mover vs no mover raid builds too.

3

First of all. Whoever says that the “no movement builds are close” is just lying. They might be close in 5 minute simulations, but those are just that, simulations. In real word scenarios, burst profiles are greatly preferred over sustained ones. That means Inertia will hands-down win in most situations, specially in AoE ones. If you want to perform well as Havoc, you should dabble into Inertia. It’s a lot easier to play and much less overbearing than Momentum ever was, so there’s not really an excuse not to do it.

There’re 3 windows of damage you should understand when playing Inertia:

  • Opener
  • In-between Meta windows
  • EssB windows

Let’s start with the easiest ones, EssB and in-between Meta windows.

A normal EssB combo syncs Vengeful Retreat, Inertia, Demonic and Essence Break:

  • Immolation Aura → Vengeful Retreat → Eye Beam → Fel Rush → Essence Break → Death Sweep → Annihilation → Annihilation

This is the bread and butter combo, and it extends in the in-between Meta combo, which is very similar:

  • Immolation Aura → Vengeful Retreat → Eye Beam → Fel Rush → Essence Break → Death Sweep → Metamorphosis → Death Sweep

Just knowing these two combos should be enough to understand and play most of Havoc Inertia gameplay. However, you can min-max the opener further by also min-maxing the Initiative windows there. There’re multiple openers and a lot of people play them differently. I personally do:

  • Pre IA → SoF at -1 → Fel Blade → Eye Beam → Hunt → Fel Rush → Essence Break → Death Sweep → Vengeful Retreat → Metamorphosis (cancels movement of VR) → Death Sweep

Other than that, it’s basic understanding of CD syncing. The 20s windows in between EssB of Initiative are better paired with Inertia and using Blade Dance, but they are not that important. It’s not mandatory to send Inertia on these as well.

About Hunt. It’s better to use it just before a Demonic window to make use of the Meta and Furious Gaze haste, as it increases the tick rate of the DoT it leaves. I don’t know how many seconds is worth holding it for, but probably not a lot as you’d be wasting the tier bonus. Try syncing it with EB if is very readily available and if you can’t just send it on CD.

Just focus on always having a charge of Immolation Aura for Meta windows and EssB windows, and you should be mostly fine.

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4

I love when people like you show their ignorance with statements like this. Math doesn’t lie, although your anecdotal feelycraft certainly is. In real world scenarios players are also much more likely to screw up, which, in reality further makes the two builds even closer in performance.

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5

Screwing up shouldn’t be a reason to ditch a build altogether. It’s more of an excuse not to try harder. There’re obviously extremes, like Sludgefist in Castle Nathria (or Tindral this tier), but more often than not, “screw up” is being used as an excuse to never try to improve and compromise with the easiest to play build. No, a no-mover build will never be close to an Inertia build in a boss like Smolderon. A 20 parse Inertia is obviously worse than a 100 parse CoH + SD build, but considering that as an argument is just dumb.

Also, my anecdotical evidence is having mained Havoc in CE level of raiding since Legion, if that counts for something.

Fact remains, burst profiles are better in pretty much any situation in PvE. I repeat again, even if 5 minute simulations are showing that no-mover builds are close to even equal, those scenarios almost never represent reality.

Tell me a single scenario in this raid in which you can slap a boss for 5 minutes, without losing uptime, with the boss having no mechanics, with 0 DPS windows, and of course, no adds.

6

It counts for nothing when you’re trying to contradict actual math.

Sure, right after you tell me, using your own scenario, which build is an average player more likely to perform well using while also having to move to avoid bad.

And lastly, it takes a special kind of person to say the no mover builds perform worse than they sim while also not acknowledging that the same is true for the mover builds. Which, if you’re not smooth brained, means the dps gap between the two stays the same.

Dumb is writing several paragraphs to argue against math without a single shred of support. Now sit.

7

Listen dude, when recommending people builds you recommend them the best performing builds based on the scenario they are playing.

You don’t understand math. And you can’t read, apparently.

In our current scenario, which is the current raid and M+, Inertia is ahead, hands down, and the only reason is because it provides a bursty profile and damage modifiers than the no-mover build simply doesn’t. Any modifier scales into AoE with more targets as well.

That’s how I always do recommendations. Do I consider if the player is inept and can’t play movement builds? No. If he can’t, he’ll say so himself. I won’t consider an scenario that flat out removes the best performing builds simply because, in your little head, you can’t play Inertia, even though using it in literally all bosses of this tier, except maybe Tindral, is completely viable and perfectly fine.

And I repeat, sims do not reflect real world scenarios, and if you can’t understand this just stop answering. There’s not a single boss inside the raid except maybe Volcoross (and not even then, as the boss duration is much shorter than 5 minutes) that can be directly compared to a sim scenario.

All my support is in warcraftlogs. Start looking at top builds and tell me where your no mover builds are (except in Mythic Tindral, that I said 14 times in this thread it is the exception because Fel Rushing in that boss due to roots is not ideal).

And finally, does this mean that the no-mover builds are unplayable? No. It just means they’re not optimal. I won’t make a recommendation on a non-optimal build. If you want to do that, you do it yourself and ask for it. The OP was asking about Inertia anyway, I don’t know why you had to go on this dumb paralell for something nobody gives a crap.

8

This was your very first statement, and it’s a lie. The rest of the blithering drivel you’ve posted does not contradict the original lie.

The people playing at the top play the best performing builds because they can play them. The average players will perform significantly worse. And this is also completely irrelevant because the first point you made is still a lie. Sims (read math since you need this pointed out) don’t lie. Your feelycraft is a distraction technique, and quite toddler’esque.

9

I will repeat this one last time, then I will just ignore you.

Sims, aka Patchwerk 5 minutes represent the following scenario:

  • Single Target
  • 5 minutes
  • No adds / cleave
  • No mechanics
  • No loss of uptime
  • No DPS windows
  • No adds spawn

There’s not a single situation that checks all of those conditions in the raid or in M+. Not a single one.

The sims are giving you a comparison of talents for a situation that doesn’t exist in real scenarios. Anyone smart knows not to treat sims like the gospel, and sims are mostly treated as a way to get approximations and gear comparisons, not to get true talent builds.

If you want to get a proper build through sims, you’d have to sim a lot of different options, durations and add numbers, and even then it wouldn’t be an accurate simulation. That’s also why the M+ sims done through Dungeon Slice are always posted with disclaimers, because they are just that, approximations.

If realistically the no-mover builds would be closer to the Inertia builds, you’d see them being played in the top end, either in raid or in M+.

They are not played, that means they’re weaker in those scenarios. Period. Yes, the best players play the best builds because they perform the best.

Do you know why they are not played? Because Inertia provides burst. Burst is versatile, burst can be used in a lot of ways that adapts to a lot of situations and burst is naturally much better when you have to exploit a DPS window or to cleave adds that have to die fast. Sustained DPS profiles cannot do any of that. Burst profiles are objectively better at dealing with pretty any situation in PvE scenarios, depending on timers. On Havoc situation, since it’s on a 40s timer, they’re just excellent at dealing with pretty much anything.

And finally, player skill is not an argument when recommending builds. If you can’t play something, the issue is on you, and you should be the one asking for alternatives when you’re asking for the best performing builds.

10

I’ve seen a lot of blithering idiot takes on the forums, but the drivel you’ve posted may be the worst, and that says a lot. By the way, it’s cute you’ve still not provided an ounce of support.

1 Like
11

You went hard in the paint to explain all this thank you. :o

I guess I’d only ask a few more Qs.

  1. What to do with those spare/free procs of Immo/Intetra outside the Eye Beam/Meta windows.
  2. It looks like Vengeful retreat is a core part of intetra combos so when I’m in between combos is SoF my primary assistant fury builder? I often feel like I’m just auto attacking if Fel blade doesn’t proc(I was previously using sigil with my combo, I forgot about VR >_<)
  3. Throw Glaive procs off Death Sweep and that gives a damage boost to Annhilator for more damage with tier right?
12

I think I only considered the no movement build for like Nymue & Volcoross, but for the rest of the content Laurineu is right those burst windows of damage Inertia provides are pretty significant I feel like in all other content.

1 Like
13

Use them at your leisure. As long as you don’t overcap at 2 charges, you can do whenever you want. Your highest DPET outside of Meta is BDance and Hunt, so try using UBC before using BDance/Hunt.

Felblade / SoF are used whenever available, just don’t overcap fury. There’s not really a priority for them.

Try pooling fury before combos so you don’t have to use fury generators in them.

Yes, through Serrated Glaive, but that procs from Annihilation itself, so the tier isn’t strictly needed to benefit from it.

14

I won’t pretend like there isn’t a lot of gray area here, and you’ve already been back and forth in this post.

But calling someone a liar implies malicious intent. Please learn the difference between that and a difference of opinion.

3 Likes
15

It’s not an opinion, as I explained it is factual. Most people say that phrase exactly because of those sims, that I know exist. However:

The only scenario in which the no-mover builds are close to Inertia builds are in those of sims, and those sim scenarios are scenarios that just don’t occur in real situations ingame, or they very rarely occur.

Those builds being 0.6% behind may translate into differences of 2-3% or more. I don’t know the exact numbers, and nobody knows. What I know with certainty is that a burst profile will react much better to fights with mechanics and add spawns that one that has less of it. I don’t need sims for that, but this is also easily proven by just lowering the sim length or adding targets to a fight.

If you want a more in-depth explanation read the previous post, even though I know you already did.

You want a better neutral ground? Yes, player skill will create a gap between Inertia and no-mover and the lack of it can make it so no-mover performs better than Inertia.

Is this the answer you guys want to hear? If you’re a bad player no-mover will perform better. I rather tell you the real information, and you do with it whatever you want to.

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16

keep in mind that no movment is a huge loss in m+ but in raid st its not that big of a loss its probably about 3% overal so you can run that as well as a option, maybe even less because no one will be playing at that level of optimization so a good no mover player will be betetr than a cruddy movers player. that being said you should try and learn how to play movers.

i also want to weigh in that the coh sd build is ahead of movers by the same amount but isnt played. idk why this person is saying “no mover builds are close” when the to go build in general is “mathematically” weaker last time i checked. sims are a great tool but you have to apply it on more than just a vacuum. if we went squarely on how sims performs then alot of “outlier spec” would be buffed rn

17

I am unsure why you are coming off as so hostile. Do you believe I have some sort of malicious intent here?

And also, yes it is a difference of opinion, likely because we are looking at this from very different perspectives.

To a top-tier player, a 2-3% as you said could be a big difference. To someone else, 2-3% dps difference could be negligible. Obviously there comes a point where most people would agree on whatever % being a big difference, but I hardly think 2-3% is it.

For the majority of players, taking into account their skill caps (because by definition not every is going to parse above 80% or whatever you would consider a good parse) and the content they do (meaning very few people are pushing past 20s or getting CE), the low/no mover builds are competitive.

I’m not sure what the OP was looking to get out of this, but if people come in here to the dh forums looking to push 25s + and do CE then mover advice you give to people is fantastic. But if people are coming to the forums looking to get into DH and do maybe AOTC and KSM then low/no movers are perfectly fine, which may or may not be the right choice for them… but they have options.

2 Likes
18

All the knowledge. :^)

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19

That’s not my intention at all. If I’m coming off as hostile, I apologize.

I wouldn’t call this a difference in opinion when you’re altering your build choice based on player skill, and you don’t know which player you’re talking about even.

Yes, what you’re saying is correct. 2-3% is something that player skill and error will cause a difference of, but still.

You’re overestimating the difficulty that Inertia takes to play, and you’re recommending builds that are factually worse in real content based on something you don’t even know to be true.

All I’m saying is, you can’t say that the average player sucks at playing movement based builds when you don’t know them. That’s a choice every player has to take individually. Those 2-3% matter, and they show when literally every single top log is playing those builds, in HC and Mythic, regardless of how ‘close’ you guys think Inertia/No mover are.

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20

:100: true facts

i hate essence break and inertia, but the cooldown burst cycles are just way better in real world play, period.

people telling you either wise probably play it so poorly it actually is better for them to play “non move.” the entirety of this game is sadly played around short micro bursts of adhd fuel gameplay where a bunch does and needs to happen all at once before its back to lowkey mundane until your short cooldowns are back up.