In this case you provided the reason why this is still a thing - people still leave. There is a penalty for doing so. There is a threshold in LFR, I believe it is somewhere around 40% of players must be missing before you leaving does not trigger a deserter debuff. I’ve had LFRs that fell apart for whatever reasons (usually it’s the bugged queue) where the people that left first got the deserter debuff, but those that stuck around until the player loss threshold was met did not get the debuff.
FWIW, I’ve been in LFRs where I ended up the only one left after a (very) long period of time waiting for a refill and the moment everyone else has left, literally the entire group was refilled in one gigantic influx. Like I said, the queue system is a mess. Sometimes it can be a hot steaming mess. The core problem is people leaving early for whatever reason. So long as that core problem exists, the system as it is will remain in place. You may not like it and I’m sure anyone stuck waiting for a refill doesn’t like it either, but it is what it is.
Want to see this become a non-issue? Stop leaving in-progress groups.
No. The change was made for ONE trinket in ONE dungeon on ONE boss.
LFR was just collateral damage. Literally nowhere did Blizzard claim this change was made due to any issue with LFR.
Not anymore. Thanks this change.
I haven’t seen this since Mists. So trying to use a niche situation as a reason for this change, when it was literally NEVER the reason for this change, is nonsensical at best.
It was never an issue. Stop trying to make stuff up.
People, as evidenced by the OP still leave in-progress groups. It just got so bad at one point Blizzard made a change. The change was, and still is since it hasn’t been reverted, intended to lessen the amount of people leaving like this. If you don’t want the debuff, don’t leave the group before the instance wing is finished. Not a hard concept to figure out.
The only sympathy I have here is for those that are kicked from a group and get deserter. The system does need to distinguish from that as VTK is a pretty awful system, especially when you’ve got guild-heavy premades as part of the group. But if you manually leave a group, expect to pay a price for that, regardless of the reason since, again, reason being irrelevant, you just disrupted other players’ progress.
So long as you insist on being part of the problem, you’ll pay the price associated with being that problem.
When people asked for this change originally, I mentioned in a couple threads that it’s likely going to be LFG-wide but people didn’t care. So people got exactly what they wanted, but it turns out what they wanted they didn’t actually want.
Hence why we get things like the “you think you do but you don’t” moment. I find the true issue to be people think only in the short term, or that it won’t affect things outside the mode they want the change done. In return, we often get the Blizzard Monkey Paw, in that we get what we want but with consequences no one thought about.
…we few are still here, as you are. Don’t look for me in the crowd, nor will I seek for you. When we see each other we will know. Maybe help each other in silence and smile, never to meet again but happier just knowing we live on!!!
Yeah, that’s pretty standard. What I usually do to min/max my time for the cartel chips is I kill Gallywix and then queue for 3rd wing which has 3 bosses in pretty quick succession. That way I can hopefully avoid another queue (I usually do, but sometimes I have to queue again for wing 1 just for my last kill) and save some time.
There is sadly no perfect “silver bullet” when it comes to this. It’s why there’s a constant tug of war going on between people that are sick of others leaving and those that don’t want to be penalized for leaving. One thing I’m sure we can all agree on it that it’s a hot mess. But the players are the ones that created that mess by being, well, themselves.
It has everything to do with people leaving early. That’s a player created problem that (obviously) isn’t limited to LFR. It just impacts the most players there, for better or worse.
Player behaviour created the situation you have now. Yes, it previously allowed a player to leave once a boss was downed. Its very original incarnation was just that - no restriction other than that. Then it became “you can leave if you are there for at least one boss kill”, meaning you had to stay for at least one boss to avoid the debuff outright. There was (and I’d hope still is) a threshold as well for player loss that activates in the event enough others leave to where you can’t progress forward. If that got nuked, I’m sure nobody’d be thrilled about it, myself included.
The bottom line however is that players created this problem. Blizzard is continuing to evolve their efforts to mitigate that problem. If they’ve tightened the restrictions so much that you can’t leave at all now without a debuff, I don’t believe that’s a long term viable solution either. Ultimately though, as I mentioned above, it’s a tug of war and a constant one at that. I get that real life does happen, and in those cases where you just have to leave regardless, the debuff won’t matter since you’ll be doing IRL things. In the cases were it’s just for your convenience at the expense of others, you’re going to pay the penalty for it and Blizzard apparently feels the behaviour has gotten worse, not better in that regard.
This is an age old issue. Again, human nature. The crux of the issue in this thread that people keep dancing around is, the penalty was raised because it was previously not deterring the unwanted behaviour. Your leaving early impacts other players and not just yourself. The penalty was designed to reflect that. Given real life happens and coupled with human nature of the path of least resistance/shortest route, not everyone can be pleased here. The only way to really avoid this for the most part is to simply not be selfish. As far as Blizzard is concerned your time is no more or less important than the other(s)’ time.
FWIW, if someone can come up with a feasible system that’s more nuanced that doesn’t incentivize trolling or unwanted behaviour, please, share your ideas with Blizzard. Until then, we made this mess and we get to deal with this mess.
No. Blizzard’s laziness, lack of foresight, and inability to do anything but double down on stupid decisions created the situation we have now.
This “trinket problem” lasted precisely until the first season of TWW started and then went away on its own. Their deserter debuff change was a way of telling the players to take responsibility for Blizzard’s own flubbing of a loot table and refusal to fix it.
Nobody stopped leaving runs because of this change. They just get on an alt and queue up for something else or leave and then run non-queued content. It fixed no problems and caused another one for backfillers in LFR.
I feel everyone should get a little bonus for full completion and no penalties if you wanna bail. This will encourage players to finish whatever dungeons or raid your doing. At the very least it should be removed from players being kicked from a group.
Nah they should change it so all items are in a chest after you kill the final boss of a dungeon including the crest, valor stone and gold. If you leave mid dungeon you get nothing. Simple fix and force people to finish the dungeons
Or, y’know, they could have just moved a single BiS trinket to the last boss of a single dungeon and then not put BiS trinkets on the first boss of dungeons in the future.
Seems like a simpler fix to me.
Cantrip items and high power trinkets (really any trinkets at all) have no reason to be dropping on the first boss of a dungeon. It’s intentionally stupid design.
And before anyone says “Blizzard doesn’t decide what is BiS,” first of all, yes they do, and secondly, whether they decide it or not by the time it becomes a problem like this it’s obvious that the item is BiS and could simply be moved to a different boss’s table.
Here’s the bottom line as far as Blizzard is concerned:
Are you making a conscious choice to leave the group? If yes, then you accept the responsibility for making that decision. You aren’t in a vaccuum here. There are others involved as well.
It’s been an issue in the past as well. Perhaps it got the the point of being out of control in TWW S1, but it isn’t a new issue. It’s literally an “I only care about myself despite being in content that involves other people as well” problem. That doesn’t mean the sledgehammer approach is the best way to handle it. I’m all for more nuanced approaches so long as the benefits outweigh the downsides.
It really isn’t something that will ever be solved with a loot table “fix” because the core issue is “this boss doesn’t give me X for this kill (or at all) so I’m just going to bail at the expense of others”, which brings you right back to a player created problem.
If you don’t want the penalties, don’t be part of the problem. This isn’t a difficult concept to get, though I can see that seeing past your own nose is a difficult concept, hence, why this change was made.
That will help somewhat, but it doesn’t counter the problem of “me first” mindsets being the reason for players leaving for the most part. The penalties are driven by player behaviour. Penalties don’t get loosened or removed unless the unwanted behaviour goes away at least to a large enough extent that the penalty because the greater of two evils, as it were.
Notice how this “issue” is a non-issue when IRL happens, because most of the time by the time IRL is done interfering with us, the debuff has elapsed. It’s almost entirely an issue only when we make the conscious decision to screw over others for our own selfish reasons.
And here lies the issue of people are doong This and blizzard realize then update the loot table afterwards people will complain.
Just move all loot to a loot box after the last boss is kill. It might not be a trinket people are farming, it could be a ring, weapon, shield, neck etc. so what’s stopping anyone from killing the frost boss and leaving?
You are never going to fix the problem of me first mindsets and trying to force behavioral change regularly has the opposite effect.
I agree. Their lack of foresight, inability to accept being wrong, and penchant for doubling down when they are wrong has definitely been a problem in the past.
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