Dungeon Deserter Debuff

[Wafectus-grobbulus]

@ßurning-faerlina

But if you voluntarily queue into a group, you’re opting into shared responsibility.

Da funk does that mean?

@ßurning-faerlina

If you bail the moment it’s inconvenient, you’re sabotaging the experience for others.

Sabotaging would be leaving in the middle of it when lockouts on bosses have already been expended.

@ßurning-faerlina

Want full control? Build your own group. But don’t queue into a shared system and act shocked when it expects cooperation.

Control is what you’re trying to do with random players.

@ßurning-faerlina

Contribution isn’t subjective when someone’s AFK, refusing to DPS, griefing mechanics, or intentionally derailing the run.

Other than the AFK, the others on the list are subjective and you can’t exactly call that bad behavior. You’re going to need a slightly more specific example of those.

@ßurning-faerlina

The system doesn’t need perfection—it needs deterrents. The deserter debuff is one of them.

Only because you’re the authoritative liaison for the company that’s here to enforce their policy.

@ßurning-faerlina

That’s backwards. They grief because they want to avoid the debuff.

Your A.I. doesn’t seem to have it arguments straight here. Why would they grief if there was no debuff?

@ßurning-faerlina

That’s why Blizzard updated the system: to apply the debuff whether you leave or get kicked.

It’s the lesser of two evils—and it’s working. Removing it just reopens the loophole.

I say no debuff is the lesser of two evils because I said so. How bout those apples right there?

@ßurning-faerlina

RDF isn’t a vending machine it’s a cooperative system.

And round and round we go; where does it stop, nobody knows.

@ßurning-faerlina

If you’re not willing to engage with that, then yes build your own group. But don’t demand changes that undermine the system for everyone else.

I don’t think so. I’ll queue up just to spite you.

@Ikanaide-pagle

Showing up without proper gear,

Right.

So long as I’m completing the job I agreed to do in a fairly competent fashion, it’s none of your business what I’m wearing, and I would appreciate if you kept your nose out of my gear.

I’m going to call bad behavior on your part here for poking your nose in someone else’s wardrobe if there was no cause for it.

@Ikanaide-pagle

not hit capped, not expertise capped,

@Ikanaide-pagle

not hit capped, not expertise capped,

Same thing again…

None of your business if they’re doing the job they’re supposed to be doing…

Bad behavior on you again for poking your nose where it doesn’t belong.

@Ikanaide-pagle

aggressive communication in chat (ex: “wtf are you doing noob rog?!”),

Agreed; and you did it, you provided an example of bad behavior I agree with.

@Ikanaide-pagle

don’t know any of the fights,

No one knows any fights until they actually get hands-on experience regardless on how many times they researched it beforehand…

Bad behavior on you again for that is not a good enough reason to kick somebody.

@Ikanaide-pagle

can’t take constructive criticism

Subjective. If they keep messing up you might have a case here, but how you presented that constructive criticism counts a lot.

I’ll give you a pass on this one. No contest.

So…overall…

What you perceived as bad behavior, I actually consider to be bad behavior coming from you.

If anything, you’re the one that deserves to be kicked.

[Ikanaide-pagle]

Maybe there is something better, I don’t think there’s anything significantly better. And I certainly don’t think removing deserter would be an improvement.

[Ikanaide-pagle]

“The job you’re supposed to be doing” is dps. If you pull dps numbers people managed 10 levels and 200 ilvl ago, you’re going to get kicked. If you’re an ele sham or a boomie wearing cloth gear and you can’t do any damage because your gear is not only trash but you’re giving up 5% mainstat because you’re cheating your ilvl, you DESERVE to be kicked.

Everyone learns the fights in normal. You don’t walk into heroic and expect to learn on the fly. You’re going to get kicked when you wipe the group.

This isn’t up for debate. You think it’s subjective. I don’t care what other people are doing until I see someone doing 20-30k dps at level 90 in full heroic dungeon gear. And then I gotta go “why does this guy suck so hard”? Inspect takes 2 seconds and looking at details another 5-6 depending on class. When I see people wearing wrong armor type, with loads of misses. It’s not hard to see why they’d get kicked from heroics/h+.

And I’d deserve to be kicked? While hard carrying the group not saying anything or initiating kicks? Yeah okay pal.

The fact you typed this out and genuinely believe it is insane. I hope you get the help you need dude.

[Wafectus-grobbulus]

@Ikanaide-pagle

I mean. If you want to avoid being kicked,

Again. The issue isn’t for being kicked. All RDF users expect to be kicked…

We just don’t want that debuff attached to it at the end.

@Ikanaide-pagle

“The job you’re supposed to be doing” is dps. If you pull dps numbers people managed 10 levels and 200 ilvl ago, you’re going to get kicked.

I don’t have a damage meter, and there is no in game damage meter I’m aware of unless they recently hotfixed one. Based on that…

The DPS I’m doing is none of your business so long as I’m doing DPS.

@Ikanaide-pagle

Everyone learns the fights in normal. You don’t walk into heroic and expect to learn on the fly. You’re going to get kicked when you wipe the group.

The issue is about getting kicked regardless of difficulty. Your point is irrelevant.

@Ikanaide-pagle

This isn’t up for debate.

I agree. I’ll queue up as I feel like regardless of your expectations.

@Ikanaide-pagle

When I see people wearing wrong armor type, with loads of misses. It’s not hard to see why they’d get kicked from heroics/h+.

Well, I hope you’re successful in getting a couple of others to go along with your reproach.

@Ikanaide-pagle

I don’t expect to be kicked? Why would I? I do my job, don’t say anything to anybody, and usually am the top dps even when tanking.

Interestingly enough, it’s those out-dpsing tanks that I’ve had the pleasure of running with who made it a point many times to let the group know how much more DPS he was doing than the DPS…

And not in a jovial-like manner as you might expect.

Usually, they would wait until the end of the dungeon-run to bring it up…

You know…

To avoid being kicked like a coward beforehand.

[Ikanaide-pagle]

I don’t expect to be kicked? Why would I? I do my job, don’t say anything to anybody, and usually am the top dps even when tanking.

[Wafectus-grobbulus]

@Ikanaide-pagle

The fact you typed this out and genuinely believe it is insane. I hope you get the help you need dude.

See ya in TBC-A dungeons, I guess.

[Opheliå-illidan]

That’s not the point captain self absorbed

[Orehamai-mankrik]

You added so much to this thread. It’s like those tiktok videos where people just point up at the video and nod.

[Steelious-4628 (Perl)]

@Orehamai-mankrik

You added so much to this thread.

Thanks for the comment. It’s super constructive too. If you don’t like my posts, please don’t feel badly about putting me on ignore. It won’t even tell me if you do

See, there I go being helpful again!

[Orehamai-mankrik]

You know whats funny is I said “he’s gonna complain about me complaining about not being helpful or constructive.”

My point is you’re not a common forum troll, you’re an mvp, giving someone on the forums a reply that is basically the same level of helpful as “google it” doesn’t feel very mvp-worthy to me.

Do better, is what I am saying. The fact you double down on this also makes me wonder what value mvp even has if you’re basically free to troll and be unhelpful when you feel like, no matter how helpful you might be at other times.

[Jellybro-pagle]

@Ikanaide-pagle

Can’t provide any real proof that it was actually for no reason.

Been kicked before when I was top dps after first boss. Whispered player why was I kicked. Straight up told me you would roll on loot their friend needed. Had to sit for 30 minutes.

What proof do you want?

Is it really that hard to believe wow players would do something like this? You actually play the game right?

Again, I don’t even have an issue with being kicked for this. The debuff is the problem.

[Jellybro-pagle]

@Ikanaide-pagle

I just refuse this narrative that because sometimes people get kicked for no reason, we should let actual griefers avoid punishment as well.

Kicking someone for no reason and making them sit in time out for 30 minutes is griefing.

Just like a tank holding the group hostage. Which I’ve never seen happen once in hundreds of RDF dungeons in wrath. But I still acknowledge it did happen to other people.

@Ikanaide-pagle

If you want to avoid being kicked, make your own 5 mans. They could remove the ability for 3+ premade groups to kick people.

This system incentivizes you to queue as a pre made and kick people that would roll on loot you need. Zero punishment. The person you vote kicked gets replaced instantly.

If you’ve ran hundreds of mop dungeons at this point, you have seen people kicked for the most ridiculous things. I will admit most kicks are warranted though.

[ßurning-faerlina]

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Da funk does that mean?

It means exactly what I said:

If you queue into RDF, you’re opting into shared responsibility.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Sabotaging would be leaving in the middle of it when lockouts on bosses have already been expended.

That’s one form of sabotage but it’s far from the only one.

Leaving immediately after zoning in because you didn’t get the dungeon you wanted? Sabotage.

AFKing through pulls, refusing to buff, griefing mechanics, or forcing kicks to dodge the deserter debuff? All sabotage.

The impact isn’t measured by boss lockouts it’s measured by how much you disrupt the group’s ability to complete the content.

RDF is a cooperative system. If your actions undermine that cooperation, it’s sabotage whether it happens before the first pull or after the last boss.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Control is what you’re trying to do with random players.

No structure is what the system applies to random players.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Other than the AFK, the others on the list are subjective and you can’t exactly call that bad behavior. You’re going to need a slightly more specific example of those.

Subjective? Not really. Let’s break it down:

• Refusing to DPS: If you queue as DPS and don’t press buttons, that’s not “subjective”—it’s non-participation.
• Griefing mechanics: Pulling mobs to wipe the group, intentionally breaking CC, or baiting kicks to dodge deserter debuffs—none of that’s up for debate.
• Forcing kicks: Coordinating with friends to kick randoms or baiting a kick to avoid the debuff is deliberate system abuse.

These aren’t gray areas. They’re patterns of behavior that disrupt group play and undermine RDF’s purpose.

The fact that you’re trying to blur the lines around them says more about your tolerance for sabotage than the system’s ability to detect it.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Only because you’re the authoritative liaison for the company that’s here to enforce their policy.

That’s a dodge not a counterargument.

Quoting Blizzard’s policy doesn’t make someone a “liaison.” It means they understand the rules and why they exist.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

Your A.I. doesn’t seem to have it arguments straight here. Why would they grief if there was no debuff?

Because griefing isn’t just about avoiding punishment it’s about manipulating outcomes.

Players grief to dodge dungeons they don’t want, force kicks to reset queue eligibility, or disrupt runs to pressure others into leaving first.

The deserter debuff exists because players were gaming the system. Remove it, and you reopen the loophole: queue, sabotage, requeue instantly.

The griefing doesn’t disappear it just gets easier. That’s why Blizzard updated the system to apply the debuff whether you leave or get kicked.

The logic’s straight. It’s the abuse patterns that aren’t.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

I say no debuff is the lesser of two evils because I said so. How bout those apples right there?

That’s not an argument that’s a tantrum dressed up as a mic drop.

Saying “because I said so” doesn’t make your position valid. It just confirms you’ve got no data, no logic, and no rebuttal.

The deserter debuff exists because players abused RDF: dodging dungeons, griefing groups, and manipulating vote kicks.

Removing it isn’t the “lesser evil” it’s removing the only deterrent that keeps bad actors in check.

@Wafectus-grobbulus

I don’t think so. I’ll queue up just to spite you.

And that’s exactly why systems like the deserter debuff exist.

If your goal is to weaponize the queue system out of spite, you’re not just proving my point you’re validating Blizzard’s entire rationale for adding penalties.

[Jellybro-pagle]

@ßurning-faerlina

Removing it isn’t the “lesser evil” it’s removing the only deterrent that keeps bad actors in check.

You can admit that bad actors are using this current system to their advantage, right?

[ßurning-faerlina]

No system is immune to abuse. But that doesn’t mean you scrap the deterrent entirely. As I said show me a perfect system without any flaws, setbacks or cons!

[Watersnotwet-area-52]

The only people complaining about getting kicked (and I can guarantee it’s 90%+ of them) is Atiesh players. They are awful, awful players.

[Atrophy-proudmoore]

Sometimes posters just need a little empathy

I agree looking for it in all the wrong places but i tried with my post at least

[Steelious-4628 (Perl)]

@Orehamai-mankrik

Do better, is what I am saying.

You’ve yet to do anything in this thread except try and derail it. Not sure why you’re hyper-focused on me. I’m a player just like you only that I actually tried to help instead of trolled.

Again, you’re welcome to put me on ignore if my posts are that upsetting to you.

[Ikanaide-pagle]

I really can’t think of any kicks except 2. And both times were people pulling wrath icc dps numbers at 90 with almost full heroic gear in the first week or so. People doing like 20-40k when rest of group is doing 70k+ each.

I haven’t seen anyone kicked from celestials, maybe someone went afk after dying and just laid there? I really can’t remember, a lot of it just kind of blurs together when you clear dungeons in 9 minutes or less on instant queues.

Ultimately, I think that an “innocent” eating a 30 minute time out once in a blue moon is fine when removing deserter for kicks just opens pandora’s box. All the time I see people talk about how awful the community is, how toxic everyone is. And you think they’d be LESS toxic if they could grief freely without repercussions? The system for vote kicks already has limits for people who kick too often (actually forgot this existed because I don’t kick people).

[Ikanaide-pagle]

What is the point then? That dungeon deserter shouldn’t exist because someone MIGHT get kicked for reasons that aren’t strictly being an awful group member? So lets just remove it without considering the consequences?

Unfortunate that majority rules and 10 different forum threads where 90% of the OP’s prove exactly why they were removed with their own comments in their own thread is a mere drop in the ocean to over 100k people not having any issues.