Dumb Thoughts : WoW's approach to Dungeons and Raids irritates me to no end

This is a personal rant, and I expect to get bagged for it, but I’ve been percolating on the subject for years now.

Constantly fine-tuning and over-tuning Dungeons and Raids to be exercises in masochism, especially in LFD/R brackets, with excessive damage spikes, stupidly finicky AoEs and demanding players memorize complicated strategies for months only for it all to have to be abandoned for the next tier is, quite frankly, dumb.

By all means, punish sloppy behaviour. Fights should be fun and challenging, dungeons should be thematic and be cap-stones to a zone, while raids should serve the same but for a patch or expansion, and fights should be memorable and something players look forwards to after their lock-out expires.

But raids and dungeons aren’t fun anymore.

They’re all set up for streamers, and speed-runners, and E-Sports. The bosses are notorious, especially in Shadowlands, for being over-tuned and punishing to reliably get past, let alone deal with for the majority of the player-base, unless you’re over-geared, or Blizzard nerfs them due to complaints.

So here’s some theories on how we could do Dungeons and Raids in the future without it turning into the same kind of Second Job Nonsense that Blizzard has expected of their players for the past six or seven years now.


1) WE ARE THE LOOT GOBLINS

No matter the story-beats, no matter the in-character reason, we’re all there for the shinies, the gear that makes numbers get bigger, the titles and the cool stuff.

So … make what we do in the Dungeon/Raid affect this in a variety of ways.

There is a Loot Bar added to the UI. Smashing barrels, freeing prisoners, slaying all enemies, sparing enemies, killing bosses with environmental hazards or triggering them into different phases can all raise or lower this bar.

For example, players are raiding a Dungeon that is based around a prison. Players start with 50% Loot in their Loot Bar. Along the way, the players find killing Guards raises their Loot Bar, and certain rooms contain smashable chests and barrels that do the same. Freeing Prisoners lowers the Loot Bar, since you have to arm and equip them to be useful, but each cell of Prisoners the Players liberate comes with options.

Players can send a cell’s worth of prisoners to the surface, losing Loot, but gaining Reputation with certain factions. This is useful both for reaching Exalted, and also getting those lovely ‘you ground out even more rep’ treasure chests.

Players can use those recently armed prisoners to help them take on the next boss. This will kill the Prisoners, they were captured for a reason after all, but an under-geared or rushing group can use this to speed-blitz through a boss, burn quickly through a DPS phase.

And finally, Players can direct the Prisoners to free other Prisoners and loot the dungeon areas that they have (hopefully) cleared, which nets a minor Loot loss at first, but if the Players have cleared wandering patrols and stronger enemy mobs, the Prisoners will ransack the place and provide more Loot than you expended, and possibly rare or random items relevant to the story that led you there, or thematic to the Dungeon itself.

LFR and Normal might just have a Loot Bar. Heroic might come with a timer that lowers the Loot Bar by a set amount for every 10 or 15 minutes that pass, and random encounters that can quickly add a whole heap of additional loot to compensate for this. Mythic could add even further shenanigans to this in the way, such as hidden bosses, specific enemies that are worth a lot of Loot or something similar.

The Loot Bar should go to 150%. Most groups starting out will reach 60-80%. A competent group should reach 80-100%. A dedicated group can reach up to 130-140%, if they know the place and the strategy off by heart. The higher the Loot Bar is by the time the final boss is defeated, not only is MORE loot given out to the players, but the quality of the Loot might also be increased as a result of their hard work and effort.


2) Gold Drops in Dungeon and Raid encounters are insulting

or

2) Even a Partial Drop is better than a lump of Gold

If you’ve designed content where you have to drag out the players’ ability to gear up to make it relevant for longer, you have failed at game design.

Rather, remember how we used to buy armor and weapons with tokens and faction currencies? Bring that back. Combine it with the Transmog sets we farmed up in Warlords of Draenor.

Want a proto-Raid set but can only do Heroics because of time issues and a small friend group? Grind those Heroic Dungeons. Every boss, regardless of if it drops gear, will drop a [Fragment of X]. These fragments can be combined with items made by crafters, or found in World Quests, or earned from Battle Grounds and PvP content, and with an expenditure of gathered resources and gold, can be taken to a specific NPC who can make Armor types relevant to the Player Character, which becomes an LFG-equivalent item.

Players choose the slot and can choose ONE secondary stat. Primary Stats (Stam, Intel, etc) are relevant to their class, but all other values are random.

This is not intended to replace gear drops as the means of Player Power Progression, but compensate for time and effort sunk into doing content only to get slapped in the face with a meaningless amount of Gold while all your friends get a shiny new upgrade … or as I’ve found in several LFR runs, not one person in a 25-Goon squad getting anything but a pittance of gold after a full three-boss wing.

If your content is that sparse that you’re having to starve players of gear to make it last longer, you’ve screwed up badly.


3) More than One Way to skin a Dragon

We all know the drill. Run in, smack Dragon on the butt. Tanks swap out every so often, DPS and healers stand off to the side, perverts cluster under the tail, push buttons until Dragon collapses in a sweaty pile and we do it all again next week.

But what if Bosses had multiple different phases that players could trigger? And depending upon how the fight progresses, gear drops may be altered, or even augmented in unique and fun ways, or specific gear tables might be accessible? Remember the Sarthion 3-drake attemps? That kind of thing. But fun.

Let’s say the Players are fighting a Mage Knight. Players can tank and spank, weather through DPS phases, punish the boss when they’ve expended their power and need to recharge.

But what if the other actions taken during the Dungeon/Raid had knock on effects? The relics you gathered from the other bosses could be plugged into nearby pylons that will enchance the boss’s attacks … but also greatly weaken their defences. It becomes a no-holds-barred slugging match where the DPS get to throw all caution to the wind and just burn like madmen, the tank gets to prove how well they can strut their stuff, and the healer can have several heart attacks in the space of a minute.

Or … they could call upon their Prisoner Buddies from the previous example to run in and curb-stomp the boss. And if they’ve resisted the urge to call upon the prisoners for the other bosses … its a big group of prisoners. The Boss get swarmed and so long as the tank can position the Boss well and keep the NPCs out of harm’s way, that’s a massive DPS boost and you get to see the hilarity of the Raid Boss desperately trying to cast spells, and constantly getting interrupted by the Prisoners who are very interested in repaying the Boss for their treatment in this prison.

Or … those monsters in the cages? Those very hungry monsters who have been starved for weeks? Players might be able to toss ‘Pungent Bait’ at the Boss and run for cover as a variety of horrors, be it Hydras, Dire Trolls, Demonic Beasts or worse come running for the bait and ignore all other targets as they home in on that Pungent Bait. Doing so might lower the Loot Bar because, you know, the Boss is getting Shrek’d left right and center by something trying to eat them, but it is poetic justice. Also hilarious to hear the boss screaming from inside a Hydra’s gullet before exploding the beast to escape and yelling about that being the second worse thing they’ve ever seen.

Option A) from the above list gives the items that are dropped a higher I-Level and possible a bonus Secondary Stat, like Leech, Speed or Avoidance.

Option B) might give a Rep gain or possibly something fun and unique relevant to the faction the prisoners come from.

Option C) might reduce the Loot Bar, but if a group is struggling with content due to team composition or other issues, it is a method to bypass a difficulty spike and get the drops needed for them to overcome this difficulty, even if it takes a few months of doing it.


4) Change it up, mix it around, rebrand and sell it again

We all run the same Dungeons and Raids.

Over and over and over again.

Blizzard is the Reskin King of MMOs, and its about time that power was put to good use. We’ve seen that they can reskin older models and make them look great. Okay. All those old raids and dungeons? Reskin them. Bring them up to today’s standards. Turn them into new, randomised content.

Sign up to a Random Dungeon or Raid. The theme could be a calendar event. Bronze Weeks send you forwards or backwards in time. Imagine doing Black Temple, but from the perspective of the Draenei protecting themselves from the Fel-crazed Orcs of the Dark Horde? Imagine doing Battle for Stromgarde, but from the perspective of the High Elves and Humans vs the native Forest Trolls, rather than the Horde or the Alliance? Imagine doing the Dire Maul Dungeons, but from the perspective of the Kaldorei during the Sundering, defending it from Demons?

Mercenary Weeks might see you going Cross-Faction and racing NPC bands, similar to PvE-version Island Expeditions. Fighting against both a resurgent Naga incursion in Blackfathom Depths and a rogue band of adventurers set on the same treasure as you? Racing against a Clan of Mogu in the Throne of Thunder, while also having to deal with the Pirates from Kul’tiras, who got kicked out and are looking to make a new home port for their fleet? Helping the Dark Spear take over Zul’Gurub, while simultaneously dealing with the other Jungle Troll tribes trying to fend them off and a rival band of Adventurers trying to loot the place and awakening dark spirits as a result of their greed and incompetence?

There’s a heap of ways that older content could be polished, set up and re-sold as new content with different enemies, upgraded Item Levels and even more importantly, continuing the stories of these zones long after we’ve passed the content and come back around for more.


And I’ve got to return this soap box.

Sorry all, this has been bugging me for years now, and I had to get it off my chest.

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Posting in a Gentarn thread.

Read it all. Loved it all. No surprise. If you aren’t a game dev IRL, you should be because I would throw all my money at your games.

Re: “Better than a lump of gold”. I would have to add to this, these DAMF paragon bags. I am sick of getting to 10k rep, picking up my bag and not getting anything other than some greys and other nonsense.

I am still farming paragon mounts from expacs past. Enough of this. Maybe have the bags also have a chance to drop some fragment or whatever so after enough of them, I can go buy the mount and move on with life.

There is absolutely nothing fun about running quests/etc from outdated expansions just to get rep, just to get a bag that does not contain anything more than 500g worth of lint.

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I really dug Castle Nathria this expac. I guess Sepulcher was a bit punishing but for me, raiding was SL’s saving grace… and we weren’t overgeared. I’d chalk the lower completion rates up to the overall exodus, not to raiding itself.

I might just really like castles though.

Except Castle Azeroth, screw that place.

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This is what I disliked most about FF14, their dungeons… aside from them being completely unskippable. Difficult for difficult’s sake. There’s no easy dungeons or raids it’s all just complex mechanics and pixel soup. Yes, some of them were actually fun, most of them were just obnoxious. One of them expected you to do math on the fly… I think it was one of the Neir raids.

Wow dungeons aren’t as bad, but they aren’t fun either, and haven’t been for ages.

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Not to give Blizzard credit but my ongoing brain scraping over power creep and item level tends to leave me preplexed because on one hand I can immediately identify timegating as the expressly uninteresting mechanic that it is… But on the other hand, with the tools at our disposal from automated group finding to in game party hosting to whatever might be available in your MMO of choice, it immediately becomes clear that if you aren’t in the crowd of mindlessly grinding your face into something without cease to be on the cutting edge of epeen measurement you’re just… Nobody.

Nobodies still make groups, clear content, and casually achieve goals, but nobodies aren’t who these kinds of mechanics end up in place for in the first place.

I don’t know how you reliably separate these things when the nature of content and design philosophy engenders a communal fixation and competition on epeen numbers, I don’t think there is a way to do that without fundamentally reconstructing how you ascribe value and reward between cooperation and personal contribution.

All I can agree with is that as I get older and less invested in mindlessly milling away hours and hours of my own time with anywhere between three and fifteen other strangers / loose acquaintances / virtual friends for a measly percent chance at some drop that’ll make my numbers a fraction of a fraction more impressive, I have to accept that I’m not and never was one of those people who did it “for the challenge”.

It’d be cool if people who wanted painstakingly droll and frustratingly choreographed dance mechanics still got that content, it’s not something I would advocate removed for the (many) people who still consider it the penultimate MMO experience. I just wish that more MMO’s provided real, tangible alternative experiences so more people had viable “end games” to work toward.

Also:

Every time I read a patch note nowadays I can’t but groan at how “Thing” is being taken away from [Y] Class because it doesn’t fit into “the meta”. Or how classes and specs (many games over) are hamstrung because their unique mechanics overshoot or don’t vibe with the gameplay as it’s created. The demand for performance in singular content avenues completely destroys and redesigns the soul right out of the gameplay.

I can guarantee that literally every single player could offhandedly reference one or more removed / reworked / nerfed ability or spell or talent or passive that made their characters FUN to them and I’m willing to bet that in the overwhelming majority of cases it was for “raid tuning” or some similar tripe.

Anyways I lost where I was going with that sorry for coopting your box.

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The dinar and fated system of this current season kind of addressed this, I don’t know if you’re playing currently to know this. Step into one of the slands raids that’s currently in the fated rotation, and you’ll get a quest to kill 30 different fated bosses for a token that you can use to buy any item from the shadowlands raids at fated normal ilvl. Even ones that wouldn’t normally drop for your class/spec (strength 2h mace for guardian). Then you get another for 15, then another for 5.

i’d only suggest that systems like this be a little less painful in regards to alts, I’m not a raid person that lives in raids anymore. And LFR has been something to grit my teeth through to get those above dinar quests done.

This reminded me of the legion grind for legendaries and the grind later near the end of the expac to make them, more sources are nice in theory but lead to absolutely degenerate gameplay and “have to” mentality, unfortunately.

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I wish they’d reduce the amount of trash mobs. I do see how they will use trash to teach you the upcoming boss mechanics but I don’t see it enough imo.

It’s better than the punishing trash mobs I remember from raids in TBC and Wrath. Yet the current method of just mass pulling and AoEing for 20 minutes is such a bore.

I did the fated raid quests and honestly I just hated how much time was spent on trash. It’s not fun and insanely boring. I even got so bored I pulled extras on purpose because it’s LFR and I’m bored and who cares I want to heal some health bars lmao

I do like the Vault and Mythics but acknowledge they could be better. Did Mythics this week and no drops for my characters, just pitiful gold, anima and orange juice. Now I gotta wait a week and hope the vault doesn’t give me leggo slot item.

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I feel like nathria was the worst of the three for sure with this. Way too easy for the group to get lost and one wing was so bad with where to go for what that if you died on trash, you got locked out of the fight and then the boss mechanics try to grab you and it resets the encounter and then the group pulls again before everyone’s there and the mechanics try to grab people still not there and the encounter resets and-

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I don’t raid much anymore but my only gripes I found in raiding this xpac was the loot, the heavy hand of insta-kill, and Sylvanas fight. For the most part I enjoyed the bosses and themes of the places we went.

I also say this as someone who hasn’t stepped foot in the latest raid.

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Maybe it’s just my skewed perspective as a very casual player over the years, but by the time Shadowlands rolled around, I was getting very frustrated by how dungeons and raids became so mechanically intertwined as “walk down this hallway, boss fight, know the mechanics by heart or you will instantly get stomped into a chunky puddle, repeat.” The only difference is that dungeons have fewer players, and as a result, have fewer potential points of failure… but that doesn’t make them feel unique.

It’s such a sweaty min/maxer mentality. There’s no adventure or mystery to them, because they are all designed with pure combat in mind. One of my favorite things in dungeons would be those little “flavor” paths, where you could unlock an alternate shortcut by having a rogue in the party to unlock some door. They even had some in Shadowlands depending on which covenant you might have. I just wish there was so much more of that as a consistent design philosophy which didn’t amount to just skipping a few enemies here or there once or twice per expansion.

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Damn do I miss rogue stuff in dungeons. Treasure chests, ffs. Vanilla and TBC rogue culture was the high point for me in this game, just making friends with people because of your class and going off to steal stuff in dungeons together?? Bonus Nelf druids for A-side antics.

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#3 is how a raid boss’ “Hard Modes” used to be back when they were creative ways to change up the fight and not simple “add x% damage and health to the boss”.

Anyway all of these ideas are amazing and some MMO company should hire you!!