Dumb Thoughts : Loa outside of the Trolls, and the changing face of Horde religion

Just redid the Orc Heritage Quest (doing them all on my alts because A: lots of XP and B: the LOOOOOOOOOOOOORE. ) and something just pinged in my brain.

The Orcs have a Shamanistic faith, namely invoking animism and ancestor worship, their faith calls for them to respect the Spirits in all things, to give thanks to Spirit within whatever they hunt, harvest or use in their day-to-day lives.

Thunder Ridge was long a source of lumber and resources to the Horde, even with the Thunderlizards of the region being agitated by various sources, ranging from demonic influence to over-logging to poison in their water, so on and so forth. But with the Orc Champion’s assistance, she’s able to start producing new growth around the oasis and promises that, so long as the Orcs respect Owa’nohe and her ‘children’, that the forest that once covered this land will return.

We know Druids are coming for all races.

We know that the Loa do not strictly limit their worshippers to Trolls alone, although they tend to prefer Trolls due to cultural pressure and familiarity.

We know the Orcs rebuilt their Shamanistic heritage from multiple sources, including the Tauren basically hand-holding them through the bulk of learning to be a Shaman because apart from Drek’thar and Thrall, there weren’t a lot of Orcs who even knew those traditions left, let alone had the knowledge of how to nurture new Shamans amongst the younger generations.

This patchwork ‘faith’ came from what scraps they had held onto even through the days of the Dark Horde/Original Horde, the Tauren sharing their own traditions with them, the Darkspear giving them some help with their own Loa traditions, and then they got a whole lot more of the Orcish traditions on Shamanism from the Mag’har of Outland.

And we’ve also seen, in novels and in-game alike, that the Orcs held great respect for the Wild Gods and the Loa, seeing them as ‘Greater’ Spirits worthy of respect and, in many cases, worship, especially Wild Gods who spoke to parts of the world that the Orcs greatly admired, namely Lo’gosh the Wolf Ancient, Ursul and Ursoc the twin Bear Gods, Aggamagan the father of the Quillboar, and even Aviana got her respect, despite the conflicts between the Orcs and the Quillboar and the Harpies.

We’ve seen the Orcs growing and changing, both socially and spiritually, especially in the past 5-7 years in-game, and the resurrection of Orc Priests amongst the Lok’osh, which appears to be a new take on the Shadowmoon’s methods, which implies that the Shadowmoon Shamans could be either actual Shamans, or an Orcish form of Priest, drawing upon the Light or the Void, or as the Orcs call them, Spirit (Light) and Decay (Void) to commune with the dead and deal with the Elements.

Orcs worship powerful Nature Spirits as part of their Shamanistic faith. We know Druidism is coming. We know Wild Gods and Loa can come in all shapes and sizes. And we know that both Wild Gods and Loa can create priesthoods of their own, sharing magical knowledge, and the Orcs have the leg up here in the form of Gonk, who specifically is calling upon the Loa of the Trolls to work together and ‘share’ their priests, creating the ‘Druids’ amongst the Darkspear and Zandalari Trolls.

What if this is how we get Orc and Mag’har Druids? Owa’nohe certainly seems to not blame the Orcs in general and is urging them towards respect for the land and its inhabitants, and we’ve seen that Orcs respond well to Spiritual pressure, especially if there are tangible rewards.

Who would the Wild Gods and Loa who may yet come to serve Orcish Druids as mentors, guides and a balancing force against the reckless aggression characterised by Garrosh and his followers?

Owa’nohe certainly seems like she’d be their champion when it came to Restoration Druids, given she has a similar sphere of influence to Trocali the Direhorn Loa, Mother of the Harvest and Guardian of the Wilds amongst the Zandalari. They might even be old friends or even cousins given the saurian heritage both share. She might even share a familial connection to Akunda too.

Akil’darah, the Eagle Loa that the Horde adventurers helped rescue from the the Vilebranch Trolls in the Hinterlands, and who found new worshippers, safety and respect amongst the Revantusk Trolls, might be willing to lend her wings to the Orcs for their Flight Form.

Gonk, much as he does for the Darkspear and the Zandalari, might lend his form to Orc and Mag’har Druids as their land-based travel-form, although it might come with a more ‘Orcish’ vibe to it. Cat-Raptors in the Emerald Dream, maybe Wolf-Raptors for the Orcs? Alternatively, we could see an entirely new Spirit native to the region, or maybe even Malorne himself, come down and loan the Orcs the use of their form. Malorne doing it would certainly be a harsh reminder to the Orcs that the Spirits cannot be permanently destroyed, and an open hand offering peace and forgiveness if they stay true to the path of redemption.

With his proud warrior nature and intolerance of injustice and cruelty, the mighty Kimbul, or to use his full title, Eraka no Kimbul, might be more than willing to loan his saber-toothed jungle tiger form to the Orcs for their Cat Forms, but he’s also a Loa of uncompromising honor and upholding of oaths, and is the ‘Doom of Prey’, not predators. Only cowards, and those who break their oaths or act without honor, attract the true ire of Kimbul, and those same traits would not only endear him to the Orcs, but also make those who worship him act in a similar vein to show respect to their Loa.

When we come to the Moonkin form, there’s only one choice really, and it is one that is going to really irk people. Aviana is the only Loa I can think of off the top of my head that has an avian theme, can grant powers similar to that of a Moonkin, and would make for an interesting wrinkle for the Horde, and the Orcs and Mag’har especially, to deal with since one of the greater threats in their lands are Harpy colonies, driven mad by isolation and the silence of their Wild God for 10,000 years, who have fallen into paranoia and worship of dark entities as a result. With Aviana back and being a very cold and demanding entity who has a ‘fly or fall’ attitude, she could be a volatile mix into the growing Orcish Pantheon of Loa or Wild Gods, but also one that could benefit the Horde, and maybe even the Harpies, possibly ending or at least putting a damper on conflicts between Harpy Colonies and the Horde in exchange for aid to the Harpy Colonies and removal of Harpy Matriarchs and their supporters who have ‘fouled the nest’ by worshipping dark powers like the Old Gods, ‘corrupt’ Wild Gods or even the Legion itself.

And finally, for the Bear Form … Agamaggan himself would be the perfect fit, having many similar qualities to the idealized Orc traits of strength, endurance and unflinching bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. A Boar-like form might work for the Orcs, rather than an actual Bear Form, and uses the Boar’s tusks, those razor-sharp quills and even those sharp, jagged hooves in place of a Bear’s massive claws and crushing jaws. And being a ‘local’ Spirit or Wild God, Agamaggan is already well known to the Horde of Kalimdor, and having worshippers amongst the Orcs and Mag’har could either lead to the remaining Quillboar of Kalimdor finally shucking the grasp of both the Scourge and the Twilight Hammer cult, or send them into a religious frenzy that their Creator-God has started seeking followers outside of their own ranks, and that could be a bloodbath …


Overall, I like the idea of the Orcs and Mag’har ending up with their own little mini-pantheon and having some very loud voices shouting “DO NOT DO THE WAR CRIME!” every time some would-be Garrosh starts thinking their tusks are a little too short and blunt, at least on the spiritual level.

What are your thoughts?

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Don’t have a problem with any of it. The gods are free to choose who they speak to and who they don’t. And in many polytheistic religions, there is flexibility on who a follower chooses to honor and take for a personal god. The Romans eventually added Isis to their pantheon, for example. And there is evidence that Isis was worshipped in Britian by Roman citizens of the time. But I digress…

Over time, the Orc are going to apt what they learned from the Tauren and the Troll and add their own spin. Since they are open to spirits, the spirits will now be open to them.

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I wish Blizz was more open to this kind of theory. It would really open up a lot more classes for a lot more races. For instance, at this point I feel like gnomes have been around humans and dwarves for long enough to have paladins. Same with night elves. We even see a night elf pally in the paladin hall. Where’s my nelf pally, Ion?

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Gentarn, you should be more careful when you go afk… never know who might be around.

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Sorry, I was banging out another thread… I apologise for not being present.

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But your fans!!!

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While I am not shocked, I am insulted that when I word match for August Celestials there were no hits.

Orc druids transforming into yaks as their bear form would be magnificent, I’m sure there’s at least one Orc monk out there on Azeroth who has been meditating on top of a yak since Garrosh crashed out.

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My dracthyr incidentally ended up on the path of the monk and also learning about the Loa. He needed a place to land after being a (mind-controlled) soldier all his life then waking up 20,000 years later to an unfamiliar world. The path of the monk helped up with his anger and trauma over his father’s betrayal and abandonment; learning about the Loa introduced him to religion, something dracthyr culture does not have. Given the connection between August Celestials (which he has vaguely heard of in his Pandaria travels) and Loa, this was a very natural bridge to him.

Sadly for me, dracthyr monks are currently not available. In some ways, partnered with his aptitude for Black dragonflight abilities, he’s very much turning out to be a Warcraft version of an earthbending monk.

So absolutely yes, if the character’s story goes that way, do it. And this definitely would open up more race/class combos in the future — for now though, most of us will need to use our roleplayer imagination while we wait for Blizzard to open up classes more.

I took a few s.e.l.f.i.e. shots with AFK Gentarn this afternoon and had a little chin-wag with Kinarra. It’s easy to think I play this game in a vacuum sometimes.

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Wait…WHAT?

Source:

https://i.imgur.com/ZK2ejCC.png

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Search for: WoW Developer Interview with Brian Holinka - Dracthyr Evokers, NEW Class/Race Combos & MORE! on YouTube and fast-forward to 10:17 for the meat of this conversation.

And then we got Rogues, Mages and Priests, then we got Monks, so now we’re just waiting on Shamans, Paladins and Druids to go across the board.

I know! It’s so weird when I see a name I know from the forums. It happens so rarely these days. It’s so neat to see people from here in real time and get to talk to them.

Loa are a unique case in which they are simultaneously the most probably, likely and most unlikely to seek a follower who is not a troll. Because Loa, as gods, are the most active and mobile beings to exist.

And Trolls have the most ancient, sacred and closed culture and beliefs of any of the races. You do not often see non-Trolls participating in Troll customs and ritual, but that does not mean it is impossible.

The line then, that must be drawn is the choice of the loa themself. One cannot willingly worship the loa of their own volition independent from invitation and expect those loa to hear them or listen to them or respond. However a loa can speak to who they wish, can patron who they will, and do as they please. There are limits of course, Bwonsamdi for example, is unlikely to take a undead patron and grant them his power. The Drakkari loa are unlikely to ever give Drakkari trolls the time of day again, yet might very likely treat with anyone troll or non troll given the betrayal of their priests, and the fact that it was by and large Non-trolls who came to their defense.

There is room for non-Troll worship and patrons of Loa, It goes hand in hand with their mobile and active nature, so long as it is the Loa’s idea first. You saw what happened to the Dark shaman when they tormented elemental spirits, now imagine that a hundred fold if someone tried that on a Loa, actually, don’t imagine; just look at Zul’drak. The Drakkari loa Quetz’lun bitterly trapped her traitor priests in her own private underworld forever, and that was what a Loa did to her own people.

Imagine what a loa will do to someone who is not a troll who tries to subjugate them, or even asks for their patronage the wrong way, or in some method that offends them?

I love the idea of exploring those themes such as cultural trade between groups, and would advise to add that nuance into it, not as a means to shoot down the idea, but as a slice of pie to consume. A little difficulty that can add perhaps hours of story telling to the relationship between a Non-troll and whatever Loa they have found themselves looking upon.

Trolls are not superstitious, they are private, as are their loa. What shifts cause a particular loa to patron this individual who is not from any tribe of their mortal kin? What events led to such an unorthodox bargain of power between an outsider, and the gods of Trollkind?

These are questions that can be asked, and their answers sought, to deepen the storytelling potential of a cultural shift between Loa, and the other races that share the world with Trollkind.

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You make me want to roll a troll! This could be a very interesting rabbit hole to explore. Thank you for providing a troll perspective. I love religions, real and fictional, and I am sorely lacking in knowledge of troll lore.

I’m not entirely sure, as you presuppose, that orcish shamanism invoked animism back on Draenor. And while, yes, orcs did rekindle a lot of their shamanistic faith in the WC3 era, a lot of that came from Drek’thar and Thrall who had effectively zero influence from outside sources back in the wilderness of Lordaeron and Alterac.

You call it a ‘patchwork’, but I don’t think that’s entirely the case. Orcs didn’t start from scratch, but instead went through a renaissance of sorts using the Frostwolves as the Library of Alexandria to go back to older cultural ideals. And there was a bit of absorbing local flavours to make Draenor-specific shamanism work on Azeroth, yes, but I don’t think in the way you’re describing that they effectively co-opted tauren and troll belief systems to make it work. The orcs still had their own thing.

I’d maybe challenge you on the semantics of this. The specific mechanics of orcish shamanism seem to apply almost exclusively to elemental powers on either Draenor or Azeroth, which are again not the same thing as loa. An orcish shaman would build a connection with the spirits of the earth, fire, water, and air (RIP totem quests), not a vague sense of nature. Do they interact with natural powers and magic, yes. But shamanistic connections to nature isn’t the same thing as “nature” in the warcraft cosmology sort of way.

I think this might have been thematically interesting in the immediate wake of MoP or even WoD, but I think just too much time has past now for this to suddenly become a thing. It’s been, what, 12-14 years since Garrosh? That’s almost an entire generation of orcs who have now grown up never knowing Hellscream or no memory of that war. So it would seem a bit odd for those things to crop up now.

I’m not against the idea of orc druids (as a disclaimer I’m against more class/race combos, out of principle), but I’m just not sure we get there by the way you’ve described.

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